That's fine with me, Jeffrey.
As I have probably talked about here - but certainly on my blog site - I am in frequent conversation with myself as to whether or not the marks in my haptic drawings are a "poetry without words" or whether these marks are a totally other form of 'psychic manifestation'. As different, say, when we hears sounds in a trumpet riff in a Miles Davis solo or witness the seeming 'calligraphy' of a ballet dancer. Though when we either listen to or see such expressions we are under the impression that we are being given the transcription of some kind of statement not much different than what we receive in a poem.
Stephen V
http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Does visual poetry have semantic limitations?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 10:46 AM
Thanks Stephen, you make some interesting points here, especially
regarding the ‘organic extension and refinement of what was originally
pictographic’. I’d like to cite this (and other people here’s thoughts) in
my article, but how to do it is difficult. I could just cite it as a quote
from an email correspondence with you on a mailing list, which is
accurate. What do you think?
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:41:16 -0700, Stephen Vincent
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>To pipe in with Sheila, one perspective is to ask whether or not text,
or written language, as such, finds its alphabetic origins in the visual -
that is to question whether or not language (writing) is an organic
extension and refinement of what was originally pictographic.
Alternatively, we can also ask, whether or not the alphabet and
subsequent or simultaneous construction of words was primarily
exploitive of an existing visual vocabulary. That what developed in the
construction of language for abstract thought had not much to do with
the visual other than you had to look at it to read it. And the reading
was made more pleasureful and convincing with well articulated forms
of script or, eventually, typography. But one ever confused text (script
or type) with the manifestation of a visual object (unless went to the
effort to make a "concrete" poem which folks were doing way back in
Sumerian times).
>
>All that said, I think there is a "poetry without words" , as in the web
site example that Sheila points to. Yet, I also think - and this maybe
changing in this implicitly digital multimedia age - that my experience
is that, more often than not folks, break into two camps - "text
centered" or "image centered". Text folks are blind and/or not
interested in getting educated around the visual (and often superficially
exploit and say stupid things about visual materials.) Reciprocally,
visual artists often read little in the way of poetry, and know or care
not much about it. With some great exceptions, of course.
> We do know that one camp, when successful, gets paid much for its
creative objects than the other. As to why, that's another subject!
>
>Stephen
>http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Sheila Murphy <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
>From: Sheila Murphy <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Does visual poetry have semantic limitations?
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 8:46 AM
>
>Jeffrey, I sincerely hope that asemic work can find its way into your
>article! I say this without any sarcasm. It's a strange thing, how
>attractive the "wordless" visual art in this category can be. There is a
>beneath-ment to the gestures. I have devoted considerable focus to
this
>issue recently, as I find it quite compelling to draw when moments
allow,
>and to perceive places such as Michael Jacobson's site (The New
>Post-Literate)
>
>http://thenewpostliterate.blogspot.com/
>
>where asemic work is offered in little "mini-festivals" (I call them) on
the
>web. There is something happening there. No, it is not words, but . . .
it's
>closely related.
>
>Then to your major point: I believe that for the expected "poetry" in
visual
>poetry - the language or syllabic ounces that apear - face some
beneficial
>contexts as well as (and with) some challenges. The allure of drawing
and of
>color and of geometry is hard to compete with. Quite akin to doing
music and
>poetry together. Guess which one draws the crowd? And then, of
course, the
>demands of the word artist. Seeking to specify to a very high degree.
>
>More to say. For the moment, some quick thoughts. Sheila
>
>On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Mark Weiss
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Or as Olson had it, "Limits are what we're all inside of."
>>
>>
>> At 11:31 AM 9/28/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>> Everything has limitations, even limitations.
>>>
>>> Hal
>>>
>>> "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
>>> --Gertrude Stein
>>>
>>> Halvard Johnson
>>> ================
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Jeffrey Side
<[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I'm planning to write an article on the semantic limitations (or
not) of
>>> > visual poetry. Has any one any opinions on whether it does have
>>> limitations
>>> > or not? I want to present a balanced argument.
>>> >
>>>
>>
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