Why would I be provocative with you when I know that you will be
provocative with me?
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:13:21 -0400, Mark Weiss
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>You seem to know as much of Williams as you do of Baudelaire and
Poe.
>Or are you merely being provocative?
>
>Mark
>
>At 02:00 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
>>Yes, and Williams was an American. I think his poetry slight, though
his
>>influence significant.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:27:06 -0400, Mark Weiss
>><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> >A few clarifications about this side, by no means in the spirit of
>> >completeness.
>> >
>> >Among what's been lost in this discussion is that the key figure in
>> >the development of American modernism was Williams, not Pound
and
>> >certainly not Eliot (whose influence sank like a stone). Pound
>> >remains in the equation by way of Olson, who claims both Pound
and
>> >Williams as prophets and saw himself as completing their work.
>> >Williams of course read French symbolism, and one can find it in
his
>> >work, but it's definitely a substrate. It's closer to the surface in
>> >O'Hara and Ashbery, both however children of Williams.
>> >
>> >Even the US mainstream now lays claim to Williams, though to a
>> >Williams reconceived as a proto-confessionalist. I think they miss
>> >the point--he becomes in that construction a justification rather
>> >than a liberation. Like Wordsworth or Hardy, it's difficult to see
>> >how Williams can be held to blame for this.
>> >
>> >Stevens, universally admired, seems more and more an isolato,
>>despite
>> >his influence on Ashbery. Helen Vendler, in the NY Times, recently
>> >tried to add him to the ranks of confessional poets, heaven help
us.
>> >
>> >Apropos of Shakespeare, see Olson's Call Me Ishmael.
>> >
>> >Except when I'm a silly child myself I tend to agree with Peter that
>> >the children ought to stop talking nonsense.
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >
>> >At 12:56 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
>> >>Peter,
>> >>
>> >>I rarely disagree with what you say, it is more often than not a
>> >>disagreement with the tired tone that seems to be saying 'stop
>>talking
>> >>nonsense you silly children'. But here I do actually disagree,
>> >>properly. I do think that 'an academic obsession with
genealogies'
>>has
>> >>something to do with how some poetry gets written, but I think
we
>>have
>> >>had a similar argument before - I know you have quite a
developed
>> >>notion of the poet as an individual. I also think you overestimate
the
>> >>influence of Shakespeare and underplay the influence of the
>> >>symbolistes, if I have understood you correctly, on C20 American.
>> >>Can't be bothered backing it up though, so I suppose we had
better
>> >>drop it. A bit of an academic point too, even in relation to the
thread.
>> >>
>> >>I do understand your objections to some of this stuff, e.g. the
>> >>shunting of names and influences, but it is what polemical critics
do
>> >>and, as I tried to say somewhere back in the thread, it is often a
>> >>case of trying to unravel things which have become accepted as
the
>> >>norm - 'We are British so we don't write like that, we write like
>> >>this" etc. It is only recently that I have begun to appreciate how
>> >>much the poets of the 40's, for example, have been written out of
>>the
>> >>picture. I knew it as a fact before, but not a reality, if you know
>> >>what I mean.
>> >>
>> >>And I like Hardy too, and not just because I'm a Dorset boy. And
>>when
>> >>I was about 22 I read loads of Wordsworth in a very positive
frame of
>> >>mind.
>> >>
>> >>I'm sticking my neck out here, I know, but I don't think you have
paid
>> >>enough attention to the material you don't like, and what is said
>> >>about it by its champions. There is no reason why you should, of
>> >>course, but however much you try to keep apart from it there is
>>always
>> >>a time when, in debates like this, it is going to become an issue.
>> >>There IS an issue here, connecting Wordsworth with certain
strands
>>of
>> >>the modern Brit mainstream, and this has nothing to do with
what
>>we,
>> >>as individual poets and readers, get personally from Wordsworth,
or
>> >>anybody else. Blast - I think I've just contradicted myself. Time
for
>> >>tea.
>> >>
>> >>Cheers
>> >>Tim A.
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