Mairead, I agree that such courses can enable certain groups to gain 
access to various art practices that they would, perhaps, otherwise not 
be able to so readily. But that is a slightly different argument, worthy 
though it is.

Self-tuition need not necessarily equate pedagogically to the “the lyric 
voice”, as, indeed, MFA courses don’t necessarily equate pedagogically 
to its absence. And, yes, the Romantics (who I have no particular 
regard for, in any case) did form loose associations to discuss their 
work, but this is different than the “industrialisation” of poetics. 

As a networking, job creating, publishing opportunity enhancing 
mechanism I have nothing against MFA-type courses, but I think they 
are equal to self-tuition when it comes to nurturing or “inspiring” 
creativity.



On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 10:45:21 -0400, mairead byrne 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Obviously I believe that, like the other arts, poets benefit from peer
>critique and a learning community where there is exchange of ideas 
and
>references, and that workshops in universities and colleges, and 
writing
>programs, provide useful environments for such exchange, particularly 
for
>women, who benefit from an environment structured more explicitly on
>egalitarian grounds than more informal peer groupings available in my
>culture at least, which were centered around males in the pub.
>"Self-tuition" demands an abrasive discussion, just as "writing 
programs"
>are getting.  Audience, ideas, challenge, performance, collaboration: 
these
>are some of the concepts quick to materialize in group situation.s
>"Self-tuition" sounds like the pedagogical equivalent of "the lyric 
voice,"
>but even the Romantics came together in groups to work and learn.  
Let's
>have a discussion on the benefits of "self-tuition" in contemporary 
arts and
>education.  I think all learning is self-tuition, in a sense, but programs
>have supplied useful structures for me and enabled me to qualify to 
teach,
>and thus support myself and family.  When I was running the 
Belltable Arts
>Centre in Limerick, in the late 1990s, I worked 7 days a week, 364 
days a
>years, 24/7, as it seemed the arts centre was open that much!  There 
was no
>time for children, let alone poetry or self-tuition.  I returned to college,
>also in my thirties, in order to have time to write and to prepare for 
the
>possibility of a career which would allow me to both write and spend 
some
>time with my children.  I identified with Michael's post yesterday.  
More
>than anything else, it was sheer bliss to have structured time to 
write, to
>read, and to articulate ideas which I had been developing for years 
through
>practice, some of which were due for retirement, some of which for a 
leap
>forward.  I've never had the sort of anxieties about writing programs 
which
>have manifested in this discussion.  I've 15 or so years' experience 
with
>them at this point, and know the pros and cons.  Just as in everything,
>structure both facilitates and limits.  I'd love to see writing programs
>situated in the art school rather than the university but that's my 
thing.
>As I say, I don't buy into the anxiety here.  I had no training as a
>journalist, learned it all from the streets, the school of hard knocks,
>self-tuition, blah-blah-blah.  But actually there were few, if any,
>journalism programs available in Ireland then.  If I wanted to be a
>journalist now, yes, I'd find the best, most challenging, most 
sophisticated
>program I could.
>Mairead
>
>
>On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:
>
>> Mairead, the points you raise are, no doubt, true in and of 
themselves,
>> but I don’t see how they are relevant, to the specific point I was
>> making about whether MFA creative writing courses (or any other 
such
>> institutionalised programme) are more necessary to teach poetic 
writing
>> than methods requiring self-tuition. I think this specific point has 
little
>> to do with culture, ethnicity or gender.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:18:24 -0400, mairead byrne
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> >I think there's a very wide range of ways poets across cultures 
have
>> been
>> >formally educated.
>> >I think there's always been control in poetry: who is allowed to
>> >write/publish.  Poetry, in English, has been much more tightly
>> controlled
>> >than prose, in this respect.  Obviously, as colleges are explicitly 
equal
>> >rights type organizations, someone like me (peasant / woman /
>> mother) has
>> >more to gain than in the ostensibly deregulated poetry world which
>> was, in
>> >my experience in Ireland, pretty much as Eavan Boland has 
described:
>> woman
>> >is the possible subject but not the possible author of poems.
>> >One problem about our discussion is the narrowness of the cultural
>> >experience upon which each argument is based, e.g., you may be
>> speaking
>> >about poetry in English in England since the mid-20th century, 
from the
>> >position of an English-born white male, while I may be speaking 
about
>> poetic
>> >traditions and education in Irish before the Plantations, and also in
>> >English, in Ireland, in more recent centuries; and diverse American
>> >traditions since Whitman, from the position of an Irish
>> emigrant/American
>> >immigrant/white/female.  Our positions are extremely close, even
>> >overlapping, yet there is little clarity.  And our discussion does not
>> even
>> >attempt to address wider cultural histories of poetry, e.g., in Asia,
>> >Africa, or even in a range of languages, although we use the
>> word "poetry"
>> >as if it were not intensely specific not only to our personal 
histories
>> but
>> >also to our personal taste.
>> >In a sense, there is little "authority" in this discussion, which does
>> >actually make me appreciate works of research and scholarship, 
which
>> attempt
>> >a broader or deeper exploration.
>> >Mairead
>> >
>> >On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Jeffrey Side 
<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On those terms he probably would be. The point is, not so much 
that
>> >> poets don't need some sort of learning, but rather how they 
should
>> get
>> >> it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:06:51 -0400, mairead byrne
>> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Yeah, and I wonder was Shakespeare's "small Latin & less 
Greek"
>> the
>> >> 16th
>> >> >century equivalent of "the guy doesn't even have an MFA."
>> >> >Actually though, I do believe the stakes are real, and very 
high, for
>> >> >poetry.  The law, more than creative writing programs, 
maintains
>> its
>> >> >mediocracy (I love PBS but find the conjunction
>> of "unacknowledged"
>> >> and
>> >> >"legislators" to be neutralizing.
>> >> >Old druid that I am, I believe implicitly in the power of words.  
But
>> I
>> >> >don't think I'm romantic.
>> >> >Mairead
>> >> >
>> >> >On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Jeffrey Side
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I can see David’s point when he observes that the stakes are
>> low
>> >> when
>> >> >> it comes to the practical ramifications of failed artistic 
practices.
>> >> >> Certainly, no reader has been injured physically from reading 
a
>> bad
>> >> >> poem. Nevertheless, many degree-level disciplines in the
>> humanities
>> >> >> and wider arts subjects are similarly risk-free. Does this, 
then,
>> mean
>> >> >> that they should not be catered for at degree-level?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Poetry does have certain skill-sets required in its writing, as
>> anyone
>> >> >> who has had to sit through endless lectures on prosody will 
tell
>> you.
>> >> >> True, prosody is, perhaps, now a defunct skill in poetic 
writing
>> but it
>> >> is
>> >> >> a skill all the same, as much as that of any involved in 
musical
>> >> >> composition. To the extent that creative writing degree-level
>> courses
>> >> >> teach this (along with, hopefully, the historical and 
theoretical
>> >> >> components in the study of literature) then an analogy with
>> degree-
>> >> >> level courses in music can apply.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:27:20 -0700, David Latane
>> >> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Here are a few more probably pompous observations. I 
wasn't
>> >> making
>> >> >> an analogy, per se, between jazz and the totality of poetry--
but
>> >> trying
>> >> >> to answer Mairead's query about whether there was any
>> meaningful
>> >> >> distinction between "creative writing" in the academy and
>> training in
>> >> >> music, architecture and other fields. One of the distinctions 
for
>> me is
>> >> >> that formal training (apprenticeship, guild, academy) in many
>> >> >> artistic/craft fields came long before the granting of degrees 
for
>> >> writing
>> >> >> poetry for practical reasons. There were skills and 
techniques in
>> >> working
>> >> >> with materials that required practice and training--whether
>> playing
>> >> the
>> >> >> piano, or engraving a copperplate, or cutting a dovetail. And
>> there
>> >> was
>> >> >> a market for certified practitioners. Poetry writing was 
different.
>> >> >> >I think there are big differences between slam poetry (or 
any
>> >> language
>> >> >> creation) and jazz. People with a certain hutzpa and no 
practice
>> at
>> >> all
>> >> >> can stand up at a slam and make an impact.  People with a
>> certain
>> >> >> hutzpa introduced to the piano or saxophone a few days 
before
>> can't
>> >> >> even begin to rip through a few Charlie Parker tunes (with
>> significant
>> >> >> variations) without having hard glassy objects thrown at 
them.
>> >> >> >Architecture that gets built requires certain trained skills.
>> >> >> When "things fall apart" (Yeats) in poetry "nothing happens"
>> >> (Auden).
>> >> >> When things fall apart on a construction site people are 
killed
>> and
>> >> >> money is lost. Poets' imaginations are free--no telos. Writing
>> for an
>> >> >> MFA degree or any other degree requires the end of getting 
the
>> >> degree
>> >> >> to qualify (hopefully temporarily) this freedom. Architects can
>> >> imagine
>> >> >> freely too -- but the vast majority of them sit a tables in big
>> firms
>> >> >> figuring out how to decorate a box more cheaply. They pay 
for
>> Pei to
>> >> >> play. So I wasn't dismissing any architects--but commenting 
on a
>> >> fact,
>> >> >> based on a goodly acquaintance with what their actually 
working
>> >> >> conditions are like. Only a few are ever given a pile of money
>> and
>> >> told
>> >> >> to make something beautiful.
>> >> >> >"But poets, or those who imagine and express this
>> indestructible
>> >> >> order, are not only the authors of language and of music, of 
the
>> >> >> dance, and architecture, and statuary, and painting; they 
are the
>> >> >> institutors of laws, and the founders of civil society, and the
>> >> >> inventors of the arts of life, and the teachers, who draw into 
a
>> >> >> certain propinquity with the beautiful and the true, that 
partial
>> >> >> apprehension of the agencies of the invisible world which is
>> >> >> called religion." Shelley--Defence
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >David Latane
>> >> >> > http://www.standmagazine.org (Stand Magazine, Leeds)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>