What's the T20 - I thought it was a terminator?!
The subjective/objective distinction is indeed unhelpful. Experience is
subjective in the sense that no-one else but you can access it. But its
made of largely 'objective' elements. 'Objective' goes in scare quotes
though because ultimately all 'objective' elements are both socially
mediated and only known subjectively.
Its possibly useful to sidestep this dichotomy by talking of
intersubjectivity. Elements of experience are more or less
intersubjective, more or less shared (or in principle shareable) with
the subjectivities of others. But nothing is wholly objective.
The language of social construction is also unhelpful. Social
co-constitution is perhaps better: experience is socially
co-constituted, made from socially obtained/supplied elements and
enabled by biological systems. And these systems were themselves
socially - procreatively - produced, and subsequently shaped and pruned
during experience-dependent neural processes of growth and maturation.
Social relations, discourses and practices act back upon our biology as
well as (co-)constituting our phenomenological experience.
This sheds lights on Helen's suggestion of experience in the
here-and-now without language. Such experiences do exist, but even these
are not simply 'individual' or 'subjective' because our ways of
pre-reflectively experiencing our bodies are themselves already
socialised. But to the extent that we don't represent or 'fix' these
experiences using language, they tend to pass away fleetingly and, in
pointing to nothing beyond themselves, are swiftly forgotten (Susan
Langer is good on this).
From this perspective, to the large extent that experience is
constituted from socially shared elements, including common elements of
biology, it has greater degrees of intersubjectivity. But to the extent
that your individual experience is derived from a unique biography, a
particular one-off constellation of social, material and biological
elements, it is less intersubjective and more uniquely your own.
J.
Timothy David Corcoran wrote:
> Perhaps the continuance of an objective/subjective dichotomy fuels this
> disquisition?
> If we agree that our experiences are socially constructed then, in a
> pragmatic sense, experience can be understood in/by the terms that
> assist us in knowing how to go on.
> It is generally at the places where our ability to proceed is impeded
> that we come to know in whose interest the discourse serves.
> And btw, in deference to this discussion and our capacity to change the
> discourse, the T20 was simply a perfunctory side-show before the Ashes.
>
> Tim Corcoran PhD
> Lecturer
> Educational Psychology
> Department of Educational Studies
> University of Sheffield
> 388 Glossop Road
> Sheffield UK
> S10 2JA
> Tel: 44 (0) 114 222 8185
> Fax: 44 (0) 114 279 6236
>
> Harris Carl (R3) BCH said the following on 08/06/2009 16:51:
>> Dear all
>>
>>
>>
>> Helen’s revival of this dialogue coincides with a brief discussion of
>> social constructionism today in my place of work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does a subjective experience imply the existence of an individual
>> “subject” that is separate from that which is being experienced? If
>> our experiences are all socially constructed then this separation is
>> problematic, as we cannot separate ourselves from the social processes
>> through which we encounter ourselves and the world. In a sense,
>> therefore, all of our experiences are non-subjective, as they are
>> constructed through our collective languaging, thinking and practice,
>> although “we” (as individual organisms) seem to be aware of something
>> going on (and are, therefore, having an experience).
>>
>>
>>
>> Is that what you were saying, Helen, when you referred to the notion
>> of “what one observes in the here and now without language (if that is
>> ever possible)”?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, although in “our society” we are construed as individuals who have
>> subjective experiences, this is itself a social construction.
>>
>>
>>
>> What would a critical realist response to this be? Would it be to say
>> that all social practices perform a social function and that, while
>> they are all ultimately based on one set of indefensible assumptions
>> or another, it is their effects in the “real world” that matter. We
>> can observe and experience their effects for ourselves (referring, if
>> we like, to our “subjective experiences”) and can perceive their
>> effects on those around us. We can see who wins and who loses through
>> the “winning out” of one version of reality or another.
>>
>>
>>
>> This takes me back to the question that David Fryer suggests we ask,
>> “In whose interest is it that this should be believed?”
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Philosophical of Birmingham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PS I wonder also whether the term subjective in the context of taking
>> anti-psychotic drugs refers to the notion of a “true self”. Whether
>> that is the self that is “sane”, “experiencing psychosis”, or “taking
>> anti-psychotic drugs” is beyond me.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *COMBES Helen A
>> *Sent:* 08 June 2009 11:19
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>> anti-psychotic drugs
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe what one observes in the here and now without language (if that
>> is ever possible)!
>>
>>
>>
>> Helen
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Suzanne Elliott
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2009 15:11
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
>>
>> Hi craig
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmm… serious /and/ interesting question. I need to be more cautious
>> about what I reproduce with the copy-and-paste function!!
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder whether it was a way of presenting people’s experiences that
>> suited ACTA PSYCHIATRICA
>>
>> SCANDINAVICA who published the article. A bit like the BPS calling
>> this months ‘beyond cbt’ theme in the Psychologist mag an ‘opinion
>> special’.
>>
>>
>>
>> suzanne
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *CRAIG NEWNES
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2009 14:53
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>> anti-psychotic drugs
>>
>>
>>
>> Suzanne, Serious question: What is a non-subjective experience?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 20/5/09, Suzanne Elliott
>> /<[log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
>>
>> From: Suzanne Elliott <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>> anti-psychotic drugs
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:01 AM
>>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>>
>> Someone sent me a link to this paper (below), I haven’t looked at
>> the full article yet, but it looks interesting…
>>
>>
>>
>> Suzanne
>>
>>
>>
>> Below is a summary of the findings of an interesting study looking at
>> the personal experience of taking antipsychotic medication. The full
>> paper can be reached at www.mentalhealth.freeuk.com/acta.pdf
>> <http://www.mentalhealth.freeuk.com/acta.pdf>
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *The subjective experience of taking antipsychotic medication: a
>> content analysis of Internet data*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *Significant outcomes*
>>
>> • Sedation, impaired cognition and emotional flattening and
>> indifference were most frequently
>>
>> associated with all the drugs examined. Few respondents mentioned
>> pleasant effects such as calmness
>>
>> or relaxation.
>>
>> • Although, the main subjective effects were shared by the different
>> antipsychotics, they were
>>
>> associated with a different profile of physical effects.
>>
>> • Some respondents described a beneficial impact of the main
>> subjective mental effects of the
>>
>> antipsychotic drugs on their psychiatric symptoms.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Limitations*
>>
>> • The generalisability of data from Internet users is uncertain, and a
>> bias towards negative comments
>>
>> may exist. However, the demographic and clinical profile of
>> respondents resembles that of recipients
>>
>> of out-patient prescriptions of antipsychotics.
>>
>> • Little information on dose or concurrent medications was available.
>>
>> • We could not assess the prevalence
>>
>>
>>
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--
********************************************************
John Cromby
Department of Human Sciences
Loughborough University
Loughborough, Leics
LE11 3TU England
Tel: 01509 223000
Email: [log in to unmask]
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