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COMMUNITYPSYCHUK  June 2009

COMMUNITYPSYCHUK June 2009

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Subject:

Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs

From:

John Cromby <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

The UK Community Psychology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:04:12 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (836 lines)

Tom Cruise, John Travolta and the rest of the Scientologists are funding it.
J.

Marshall Barbara wrote:
> I think, for me, the question is about an individual's agency - the 
> possibility of having power as an individual to make positive changes 
> to the world we live in. We try to find others who we imagine think in a 
> similar manner. Groups of people, even with an apparently similar focus 
> regarding what they want to change, tend to schism for many different 
> reasons.  Having some shared acceptance of the issues helps to clarify 
> the goals (if it can be managed).  The idea of intersubjectivity aids an 
> understanding of just how complex the task is when we try to group with 
> like minded people to take collective action.  Equally, the language we 
> use to try to express ourselves is itself loaded.  If we organise around 
> the concept of 'race' do we not dig ourselves further into accepting 
> 'race' as valid and a useful marker of difference (I use that identity 
> marker as it seems the most stark)?  My interest in the subject was in 
> trying to imagine the task of effecting change through thinking about 
> how individuals are integrated into the world they live in and what 
> agency any single person can be said to have...
>  
> It all seems so complex...
>  
> Barbara
>  
> PS Just to get back to the issue of anti-psychotic drugs, I have just 
> today received from the US free of charge information from the Citizens 
> Commission on Human Rights which includes the DVD called Psychiatry An 
> Industry of Death and a glossy supplement brochure.  I don't know if I 
> got the link from this group, I can't remember.  I don't know who is 
> funding this but having produced and distributed the material free of 
> charge internationally they must have a few bob in their coffers.  A 
> summary look tells me that anti-psychiatry would be an understatement.
>  
>  
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]]*On Behalf Of *David Fryer
>     *Sent:* 12 June 2009 12:46
>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     *Subject:* Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
> 
>     Hi John,
>     I think that that questions about relationships between subjectivity
>     and power are relevant to community critical psychology in relation
>     to specific issues but I was really asking something different ...
>     not so much a psychologistic / individualistic question about why
>     people are interested in or motivated to write about X or an
>     intellectual question about why is is an interesting debating topic
>     but asking about what is going on 'below' these issues . . . which /
>     whose interests are being served by the devotion of such time and
>     energy to this issue as opposed to other issues.
>     Periodically issue provokes far more posts and posts are in
>     different in rhetoric to those about other issues. In the past CBT
>     has been this sort of issue.  It is clearer whose interests are
>     served by the construction of CBT as an issue to absorb our interest
>     and energy and deflect it from other more important issues but this
>     one? The original post an opportunity for discussion of and
>     opposition to pharmacological abuse and the deployment of the (to
>     ccp) discredited objective / subjective  binary but discussion
>     focused on the latter along with old identity jokes rather than the
>     oppressive impacts of big pharma. I have been asking myself why?
>     David   
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* John Cromby <[log in to unmask]>
>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     *Sent:* Friday, 12 June, 2009 10:59:21
>     *Subject:* Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
> 
>     David, I'm surprised that you seem surprised by this. Questions
>     about the nature of experience and the ways in which psychological
>     subjects are bound up with their social and material circumstances
>     are surely of abiding relevance for a list discussing community
>     psychology?
>     J.
> 
>     David Fryer wrote:
>      > Why is so much time being devoted to this issue on this list?
>      > David
>      >
>      >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      > *From:* Penny Priest <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > *To:* [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>      > *Sent:* Thursday, 11 June, 2009 11:17:53
>      > *Subject:* Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      > Hi Carl
>      > John has an excellent paper (written with Dave Harper) on our
>     midlands psychology group website
>     (http://www.midpsy.freeuk.com/paranoia.pdf) about paranoia, which
>     develops some of these ideas and subjectivity (I think John's also
>     one of the editors of the journal Subjectivity... is that right John?).
>      > Best wishes
>      > Craig Newnes
>      >
>      > (Craig once told me he was me and I was him, and presumably we
>     were both everybody else, so...)
>      >
>      > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harris Carl (R3) BCH"
>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > To: <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:03 AM
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>     anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      >
>      > Hello All
>      >
>      > I just wanted to go back to the bit where Barbara was responding
>     to John. I also found John's response particularly interesting.
>      >
>      > For me community psychology emphasises the importance of people's
>     material experiences in relation to the things that they think. So
>     its our social experience that determines our consciousness rather
>     than the other way around.
>      >
>      > But then there is also the material part of ourselves. The
>     problem for me is that the thinking about the material part of the
>     human experience is often medicalised. The brain has been colonised
>     by, for instance, MRI scans which are, in turn, used to support
>     notions like "ADHD" which decontextualise people's experiences and
>     actions.
>      >
>      > David Smail has talked about the body as the basis of human
>     experience. John Cromby has talked about "embodiment" at different
>     times. Has this thinking been developed and where? Can it be used to
>     help develop our understanding of how our social experiences relate
>     to our material selves?
>      >
>      > Philosophical of Birmingham
>      >
>      > PS I would also like to know what the person who is calling
>     themselves Craig Newnes has done with the real Craig.
>      >
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Gopfert, Michael
>      > Sent: 11 June 2009 09:48
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>     anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      > It sounds like a near psychotic experience: if you had a
>     folie-a-deux between two (or more) of the identities involved it
>     would lead to a merger and could represent cure?
>      >
>      > Michael Göpfert,
>      > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Skype: Michael.g1947
>      > Work 44-151-7246872
>      > ________________________________________
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>     [[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Mark Rapley
>     [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>]
>      > Sent: 10 June 2009 23:21
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>     anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      > My doppelganger disagrees with me about the existence of my - or
>     is it ur  -
>      > inner world(s). S/he is from Fiji. Or thereabouts. So s/he says.
>      > But s/he - or is it me - paints quite well...
>      > Yours PG (we think, for now)
>      >
>      > Mark Rapley, PhD,
>      > Professor of Clinical Psychology,
>      > Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
>      > School of Psychology,
>      > University of East London,
>      > London, E15 4LZ,
>      > U.K.
>      >
>      > Tel:  +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
>      > Tel:  +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
>      > Tel:  +44 (0)7951 908409  (Mobile)
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>     CRAIG NEWNES
>      > Sent: Wed 6/10/2009 21:39
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      > What, exactly, is an "inner world?" The cultures I know of are
>     Polynesian.
>      > C
>      >
>      > --- On Wed, 10/6/09, Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > From: Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:37 PM
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Yes, very interesting - where are they?
>      > How come an artist paints in a style that we all recognise for
>     his or her
>      > style, if they are not a person and don't perceive their own
>     inner needs?
>      >
>      > One can take social construction perhaps too far, as we do exist as
>      > individuals, unique ones at that, in term of our blood, genes,
>     fingerprints
>      > and unique set of emotions and thoughts. These we can at leisure
>     observe from
>      > the inside - and from the outside via other peoples' social
>     constructions of
>      > us -  as Helen said; we are each necessarily the best observer of
>     our inner
>      > world, or observers, if you have multiple personalities,
>      >
>      > Greta
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>      > [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of tim anstiss
>      > Sent: 10 June 2009 10:16
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > that sounds interesting - which cultures are these?
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Tim
>      >
>      > --- On Wed, 10/6/09, CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>      >
>      > From: CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 10:12 AM
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > You have to believe in the concept of "persons" to write this.
>     All over the
>      > world people do indeed believe they change by the minute - in
>     some cultures
>      > "responsibility" for the self is unknown because "selves" change
>     daily -
>      > hence you can't be held responsible for something done yesterday
>     - and
>      > "achievement" is unheard of
>      >
>      > Craig
>      >
>      > --- On Wed, 10/6/09, COMBES Helen A <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > From: COMBES Helen A <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 10:00 AM
>      >
>      >
>      > Dear Philosophical of Birmingham
>      >
>      > You raise some interesting points.  I think that we are the best
>     observers of
>      > our inner world and in that sense we are the most objective
>     viewers of our
>      > experience.  Through language we can have some shared
>     understanding and of
>      > course language is an extremely useful tool but it is always limited.
>      >
>      > Your post script about true selves as the subjective is also
>     interesting. Do
>      > we become another person when we change our minds, when we move,
>     change/lose
>      > our jobs/parents.  I doubt it?!
>      >
>      > Helen
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>      > [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Harris Carl
>     (R3) BCH
>      > Sent: 08 June 2009 16:51
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      > Dear all
>      >
>      > Helen's revival of this dialogue coincides with a brief
>     discussion of social
>      > constructionism today in my place of work.
>      >
>      > Does a subjective experience imply the existence of an individual
>     "subject"
>      > that is separate from that which is being experienced? If our
>     experiences are
>      > all socially constructed then this separation is problematic, as
>     we cannot
>      > separate ourselves from the social processes through which we
>     encounter
>      > ourselves and the world. In a sense, therefore, all of our
>     experiences are
>      > non-subjective, as they are constructed through our collective
>     languaging,
>      > thinking and practice, although "we" (as individual organisms)
>     seem to be
>      > aware of something going on (and are, therefore, having an
>     experience).
>      >
>      > Is that what you were saying, Helen, when you referred to the
>     notion of "what
>      > one observes in the here and now without language (if that is ever
>      > possible)"?
>      >
>      > So, although in "our society" we are construed as individuals who
>     have
>      > subjective experiences, this is itself a social construction.
>      >
>      > What would a critical realist response to this be? Would it be to
>     say that
>      > all social practices perform a social function and that, while
>     they are all
>      > ultimately based on one set of indefensible assumptions or
>     another, it is
>      > their effects in the "real world" that matter. We can observe and
>     experience
>      > their effects for ourselves (referring, if we like, to our
>     "subjective
>      > experiences") and can perceive their effects on those around us.
>     We can see
>      > who wins and who loses through the "winning out" of one version
>     of reality or
>      > another.
>      >
>      > This takes me back to the question that David Fryer suggests we
>     ask, "In
>      > whose interest is it that this should be believed?"
>      >
>      > Cheers
>      >
>      > Philosophical of Birmingham
>      >
>      >
>      > PS I wonder also whether the term subjective in the context of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs refers to the notion of a "true self".
>     Whether that is
>      > the self that is "sane", "experiencing psychosis", or "taking
>     anti-psychotic
>      > drugs" is beyond me.
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>      > [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of COMBES Helen A
>      > Sent: 08 June 2009 11:19
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      >
>      > Maybe what one observes in the here and now without language (if
>     that is ever
>      > possible)!
>      >
>      > Helen
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>      > [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Suzanne Elliott
>      > Sent: 20 May 2009 15:11
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
>      > Hi craig
>      >
>      > Hmmm. serious and interesting question.  I need to be more
>     cautious about
>      > what I reproduce with the copy-and-paste function!!
>      >
>      > I wonder whether it was a way of presenting people's experiences
>     that suited
>      > ACTA PSYCHIATRICA
>      > SCANDINAVICA who published the article.  A bit like the BPS
>     calling this
>      > months 'beyond cbt' theme in the Psychologist mag an 'opinion
>     special'.
>      >
>      > suzanne
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>      > [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of CRAIG NEWNES
>      > Sent: 20 May 2009 14:53
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>      > anti-psychotic drugs
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > Suzanne, Serious question: What is a non-subjective experience?
>      >
>      > Craig
>      >
>      > --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Suzanne Elliott
>     <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > wrote:
>      >
>      > From: Suzanne Elliott <[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>      > Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
>     anti-psychotic
>      > drugs
>      > To: [log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>      > Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:01 AM
>      >
>      >
>      > Hi everyone
>      >
>      > Someone sent me a link to this paper (below), I haven't looked at
>     the full
>      > article yet, but it looks interesting.
>      >
>      > Suzanne
>      >
>      > Below is a summary of the findings of an interesting study
>     looking at the
>      > personal experience of taking antipsychotic medication. The full
>     paper can be
>      > reached at www.mentalhealth.freeuk.com/acta.pdf
>      >
>      > The subjective experience of taking antipsychotic medication: a
>     content
>      > analysis of Internet data
>      >
>      > Significant outcomes
>      > . Sedation, impaired cognition and emotional flattening and
>     indifference were
>      > most frequently
>      > associated with all the drugs examined. Few respondents mentioned
>     pleasant
>      > effects such as calmness
>      > or relaxation.
>      > . Although, the main subjective effects were shared by the different
>      > antipsychotics, they were
>      > associated with a different profile of physical effects.
>      > . Some respondents described a beneficial impact of the main
>     subjective
>      > mental effects of the
>      > antipsychotic drugs on their psychiatric symptoms.
>      >
>      > Limitations
>      > . The generalisability of data from Internet users is uncertain,
>     and a bias
>      > towards negative comments
>      > may exist. However, the demographic and clinical profile of
>     respondents
>      > resembles that of recipients
>      > of out-patient prescriptions of antipsychotics.
>      > . Little information on dose or concurrent medications was available.
>      > . We could not assess the prevalence
>      >
>      > ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list
>      > for community psychology in the UK . To unsubscribe or to change
>     your details
>      > visit the website:
>      > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>     For any
>      > problems or queries, contact the list moderator: Grant Jeffrey
>      > ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>)
>      > ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list
>      > for community psychology in the UK . To unsubscribe or to change
>     your details
>      > visit the website:
>      > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>     For any
>      > problems or queries, contact the list moderator: Grant Jeffrey
>      > ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>)
>      > ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
>     discussion list
>      > for community psychology in the UK . To unsubscribe or to change
>     your details
>      > visit the website:
>      > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
>     For any
>      > problems or queries, contact the list moderator: Grant Jeffrey
>      > ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>)
>      >
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>     -- ********************************************************
>     John Cromby
>     Department of Human Sciences
>     Loughborough University
>     Loughborough, Leics
>     LE11 3TU England
>     Tel: 01509 223000
>     Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>     Personal webpage: http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/
>     Co-Editor, "Subjectivity": www.palgrave-journals.com/sub
>     ********************************************************
> 
>     ___________________________________
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-- 
********************************************************
John Cromby
Department of Human Sciences
Loughborough University
Loughborough, Leics
LE11 3TU England
Tel: 01509 223000
Email: [log in to unmask]
Personal webpage: http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/
Co-Editor, "Subjectivity": www.palgrave-journals.com/sub
********************************************************

___________________________________
COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK
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