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COMMUNITYPSYCHUK  June 2009

COMMUNITYPSYCHUK June 2009

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Subject:

Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs

From:

Penny Priest <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

The UK Community Psychology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:17:53 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (487 lines)

Hi Carl
John has an excellent paper (written with Dave Harper) on our midlands 
psychology group website (http://www.midpsy.freeuk.com/paranoia.pdf) about 
paranoia, which develops some of these ideas and subjectivity (I think 
John's also one of the editors of the journal Subjectivity... is that right 
John?).
Best wishes
Craig Newnes

(Craig once told me he was me and I was him, and presumably we were both 
everybody else, so...)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harris Carl (R3) BCH" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking 
anti-psychotic drugs


Hello All

I just wanted to go back to the bit where Barbara was responding to John. I 
also found John's response particularly interesting.

For me community psychology emphasises the importance of people's material 
experiences in relation to the things that they think. So its our social 
experience that determines our consciousness rather than the other way 
around.

But then there is also the material part of ourselves. The problem for me is 
that the thinking about the material part of the human experience is often 
medicalised. The brain has been colonised by, for instance, MRI scans which 
are, in turn, used to support notions like "ADHD" which decontextualise 
people's experiences and actions.

David Smail has talked about the body as the basis of human experience. John 
Cromby has talked about "embodiment" at different times. Has this thinking 
been developed and where? Can it be used to help develop our understanding 
of how our social experiences relate to our material selves?

Philosophical of Birmingham

PS I would also like to know what the person who is calling themselves Craig 
Newnes has done with the real Craig.


-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List 
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gopfert, Michael
Sent: 11 June 2009 09:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking 
anti-psychotic drugs

It sounds like a near psychotic experience: if you had a folie-a-deux 
between two (or more) of the identities involved it would lead to a merger 
and could represent cure?

Michael Göpfert,
[log in to unmask]
Skype: Michael.g1947
Work 44-151-7246872
________________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List 
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Rapley 
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 10 June 2009 23:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking 
anti-psychotic drugs

My doppelganger disagrees with me about the existence of my - or is it 
ur  -
inner world(s). S/he is from Fiji. Or thereabouts. So s/he says.
But s/he - or is it me - paints quite well...
Yours PG (we think, for now)

Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
University of East London,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.

Tel:   +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel:   +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel:   +44 (0)7951 908409  (Mobile)




-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of CRAIG NEWNES
Sent: Wed 6/10/2009 21:39
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs

What, exactly, is an "inner world?" The cultures I know of are Polynesian.
C

--- On Wed, 10/6/09, Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


From: Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:37 PM








Yes, very interesting - where are they?
 How come an artist paints in a style that we all recognise for his or her
style, if they are not a person and don't perceive their own inner needs?

One can take social construction perhaps too far, as we do exist as
individuals, unique ones at that, in term of our blood, genes, fingerprints
and unique set of emotions and thoughts. These we can at leisure observe 
from
the inside - and from the outside via other peoples' social constructions of
us -  as Helen said; we are each necessarily the best observer of our inner
world, or observers, if you have multiple personalities,

Greta



From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of tim anstiss
Sent: 10 June 2009 10:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs





that sounds interesting - which cultures are these?



Tim

--- On Wed, 10/6/09, CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: CRAIG NEWNES <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 10:12 AM






You have to believe in the concept of "persons" to write this. All over the
world people do indeed believe they change by the minute - in some cultures
"responsibility" for the self is unknown because "selves" change daily -
hence you can't be held responsible for something done yesterday - and
"achievement" is unheard of

Craig

--- On Wed, 10/6/09, COMBES Helen A <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


From: COMBES Helen A <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 10:00 AM


Dear Philosophical of Birmingham

You raise some interesting points.  I think that we are the best observers 
of
our inner world and in that sense we are the most objective viewers of our
experience.   Through language we can have some shared understanding and of
course language is an extremely useful tool but it is always limited.

Your post script about true selves as the subjective is also interesting. 
Do
we become another person when we change our minds, when we move, change/lose
our jobs/parents.  I doubt it?!

Helen




From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Harris Carl (R3) BCH
Sent: 08 June 2009 16:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs

Dear all

Helen's revival of this dialogue coincides with a brief discussion of social
constructionism today in my place of work.

Does a subjective experience imply the existence of an individual "subject"
that is separate from that which is being experienced? If our experiences 
are
all socially constructed then this separation is problematic, as we cannot
separate ourselves from the social processes through which we encounter
ourselves and the world. In a sense, therefore, all of our experiences are
non-subjective, as they are constructed through our collective languaging,
thinking and practice, although "we" (as individual organisms) seem to be
aware of something going on (and are, therefore, having an experience).

Is that what you were saying, Helen, when you referred to the notion of 
"what
one observes in the here and now without language (if that is ever
possible)"?

So, although in "our society" we are construed as individuals who have
subjective experiences, this is itself a social construction.

What would a critical realist response to this be? Would it be to say that
all social practices perform a social function and that, while they are all
ultimately based on one set of indefensible assumptions or another, it is
their effects in the "real world" that matter. We can observe and experience
their effects for ourselves (referring, if we like, to our "subjective
experiences") and can perceive their effects on those around us. We can see
who wins and who loses through the "winning out" of one version of reality 
or
another.

This takes me back to the question that David Fryer suggests we ask, "In
whose interest is it that this should be believed?"

Cheers

Philosophical of Birmingham


PS I wonder also whether the term subjective in the context of taking
anti-psychotic drugs refers to the notion of a "true self". Whether that is
the self that is "sane", "experiencing psychosis", or "taking anti-psychotic
drugs" is beyond me.





From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of COMBES Helen A
Sent: 08 June 2009 11:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs


Maybe what one observes in the here and now without language (if that is 
ever
possible)!

Helen




From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzanne Elliott
Sent: 20 May 2009 15:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic drugs
Hi craig

Hmmm. serious and interesting question.  I need to be more cautious about
what I reproduce with the copy-and-paste function!!

I wonder whether it was a way of presenting people's experiences that suited
ACTA PSYCHIATRICA
SCANDINAVICA who published the article.  A bit like the BPS calling this
months 'beyond cbt' theme in the Psychologist mag an 'opinion special'.

suzanne




From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CRAIG NEWNES
Sent: 20 May 2009 14:53
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking
anti-psychotic drugs






Suzanne, Serious question: What is a non-subjective experience?

Craig

--- On Wed, 20/5/09, Suzanne Elliott <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

From: Suzanne Elliott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] subjective experience of taking anti-psychotic
drugs
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:01 AM


Hi everyone

Someone sent me a link to this paper (below), I haven't looked at the full
article yet, but it looks interesting.

Suzanne

Below is a summary of the findings of an interesting study looking at the
personal experience of taking antipsychotic medication. The full paper can 
be
reached at www.mentalhealth.freeuk.com/acta.pdf

The subjective experience of taking antipsychotic medication: a content
analysis of Internet data

Significant outcomes
. Sedation, impaired cognition and emotional flattening and indifference 
were
most frequently
associated with all the drugs examined. Few respondents mentioned pleasant
effects such as calmness
or relaxation.
. Although, the main subjective effects were shared by the different
antipsychotics, they were
associated with a different profile of physical effects.
. Some respondents described a beneficial impact of the main subjective
mental effects of the
antipsychotic drugs on their psychiatric symptoms.

Limitations
. The generalisability of data from Internet users is uncertain, and a bias
towards negative comments
may exist. However, the demographic and clinical profile of respondents
resembles that of recipients
of out-patient prescriptions of antipsychotics.
. Little information on dose or concurrent medications was available.
. We could not assess the prevalence

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This material has been checked by us for computer viruses using
Sophos Anti-Virus and although no virus has been found by us, we cannot
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accept any liability for loss or damage which may be caused. This
communication is intended solely for the addressee and is confidential.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,
distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on
it, is prohibited and may be unlawful.
Any information, materials, graphics, and/or opinions posted by the
sender are those of the respective sender and do not necessarily reflect
the opinion of Birmingham Children's Hospital NHS Foundation Trust unless
explicitly stated to the contrary.

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