>>> Gareth WILLIAMS 12/05/2009 16:13 >>>
Adam, it might be worth having a look at Benach, Muntaner etc on precarious employment, or better still, go and talk to a few people working in the modern service and care sectors about wages, security, rights etc.
Gareth
Professor Gareth Williams
School of Social Sciences
Cardiff University
Glamorgan Building
King Edward VII Avenue
Cardiff CF10 3WT
Wales, UK
Tel: +44(0)29 2087 5500
Fax: +44(0)29 2087 4175
New from The Policy Press:
COMMUNITY HEALTH AND WELLBEING
Edited by Steve Cropper, Alison Porter, Gareth Williams, Sandra
Carlisle, Robert Moore, Martin O'Neill, Chris Roberts and Helen Snooks
For further details visit http://www.policypress.org.uk
Professor Gareth Williams
School of Social Sciences
Cardiff University
Glamorgan Building
King Edward VII Avenue
Cardiff CF10 3WT
Wales, UK
Tel: +44(0)29 2087 5500
Fax: +44(0)29 2087 4175
New from The Policy Press:
COMMUNITY HEALTH AND WELLBEING
Edited by Steve Cropper, Alison Porter, Gareth Williams, Sandra
Carlisle, Robert Moore, Martin O'Neill, Chris Roberts and Helen Snooks
For further details visit http://www.policypress.org.uk
>>> Adam Oliver <[log in to unmask]> 12/05/2009 15:29 >>>
Hold on a second Bob. Firstly, I don't think I'm suffering from a lack
of humility, but I might be, so I'll take your word for that. I am all
for academic discourse (that's mostly what I do). But I thought that the
people on this list actually wanted to address health inequalities,
which I think needs an engagement with political, economic and social
reality. Engels' descriptions of the working classes when he was around
may be excellent, but, I suspect, are irrelevant today. How are most
people going to suffer at work? Death by a thousand pencil sharpener
cuts? The vast majority of people have more chance of being electrocuted
by their DVD players than through the sufferings of the workplace.
The reason why this frustrates me is that it is damaging (I think) for
those who actually wish to engage with policy makers, to at least talk
about what can realistically be done.
________________________________
From: Robert Williams [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 12 May 2009 15:13
To: Oliver,AJ; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Plato on Inequality
Thanks
I really enjoy reading the material within this network.
I do think, however, Adam, that a little more humility might be useful.
For, example, I had forgotten how valuable Engels descriptions and
analysis of the experiences of working class people were. Old Engels
and Marx had a real passionate sense of concern for working class
people, and a desire for their health and welfare to be liberated from
the inherent inequalities within an ever expanding international
capitalist system. Quite reasonable really, surely?
Irrelevant now? For Adam, but not for me.
Bob Williams
________________________________
From: The Health Equity Network (HEN)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam Oliver
Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality
This might be relevant if we are talking about England circa 1850. In
the UK context, it is probably almost entirely irrelevant today (it may
well be relevant in the developing country context of course, but that
brings forth a whole different set of issues). I thought the UK members
of HEN actually wanted to try to address health inequalities in the UK.
We have a disgraced parliament (on the whole), a terminally ill Labour
government, an impending not-very-centre right Conservative Government
(we need a new political party here), the largest public sector deficit
in history, and a major economic recession. And people are quoting Marx.
(ok - I quoted Aristotle, but I thought his point, or interpretations
thereof were relevant)
Do we need a dose of reality?
________________________________
From: The Health Equity Network (HEN)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dennis
Raphael
Sent: 12 May 2009 12:23
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality
another philosopher?
When one individual inflicts bodily injury upon another such injury that
death results, we call the deed manslaughter; when the assailant knew in
advance that the injury would be fatal, we call his deed murder.
When society places workers in such a position that they inevitably meet
a too early and an unnatural death, one which is quite as much a death
by violence as that by the sword or bullet; when it deprives thousands
of the necessaries of life, places them under conditions in which they
cannot live - forces them, through the strong arm of the law, to remain
in such conditions until that death ensues which is the inevitable
consequence - knows that these thousands of victims must perish, and yet
permits these conditions to remain, its deed is murder just as surely as
the deed of the single individual; disguised, malicious murder, murder
against which none can defend himself, which does not seem what it is,
because no man sees the murderer, because the death of the victim seems
a natural one, since the offence is more one of omission than of
commission. But murder it remains...
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engles_Condition_of_
the_Working_Class_in_England.pdf
<http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engles_Condition_of
_the_Working_Class_in_England.pdf>
Dennis Raphael, PhD
Professor of Health Policy and Management
York University
4700 Keele Street
Room 418, HNES Building
Toronto, Ontario M3J 1P3
416-736-2100, ext. 22134
email: [log in to unmask]
http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/draphael
Of interest:
*NEW* Social Determinants of Health: Canadian Perspectives, 2nd
edition, edited by Dennis Raphael
Forewords by Carolyn Bennett and Roy Romanow
<http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/draphael> http://tinyurl.com/5l6yh9
Poverty and Policy in Canada: Implications for Health and Quality of
Life by Dennis Raphael
Foreword by Jack Layton
<http://tinyurl.com/5l6yh9> http://tinyurl.com/2hg2df
Staying Alive: Critical Perspectives on Health, Illness, and Health
Care, edited by Dennis Raphael, Toba Bryant, and Marcia Rioux
Foreword by Gary Teeple
<http://tinyurl.com/2hg2df> http://tinyurl.com/2zqrox
See a lecture! The Politics of Population Health
<http://tinyurl.com/2zqrox>
http://msl.stream.yorku.ca/mediasite/viewer/?peid=ac604170-9ccc-4268-a1a
f-9a9e04b28e1d
Also, presentation on Politics and Health at the Centre for Health
Disparities in Cleveland Ohio
<http://msl.stream.yorku.ca/mediasite/viewer/?peid=ac604170-9ccc-4268-a1
af-9a9e04b28e1d>
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4129139685624192201&hl=en
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4129139685624192201&hl=en>
Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic
communications disclaimer:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm
Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm
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