Hi Damian,

Point well taken, well put.

I do entirely agree that "film" and "art" as they are both (generally,
normally, traditionally) categorized and understood, if I can make a
blanket statement, do not aim for the same "thing" -- or (often) the
same "audience" -- and we have to be conscious of these differences,
which most of us are, but we can also see where the expansion
(explosion?) of "art" (as a term) can lead to its own un-doing, and
hence re-doing -- as I think Foucault suggests.  But, perhaps, I am
getting off the point.  So, to return, in a sense, I think that film
is an "art" in the sense that it is a "redistribution of the sensible"
(Ranciere).  I think film is part and parcel to our current "aesthetic
regime" (Ranciere).  And all that said, I have no investment in
"traditional notions" of "art" (as passed down from art history and
its institutions).

On a similar note, or a parallel one, I find cinema utterly more
"democratic" (in the sense we can all watch a film, which is the
"same" film for everyone, which is _not_ to say it means the same for
everyone, and we can watch it [now] wherever, whenever) than "art"
(and I mean so-called "fine art"), and we can buy (most) films --
without the (tired) claims by many as _that_ film not being the
original, the real, the true film -- as what happens with "fine art"
(e.g., buying a poster of such and such an artwork).  Walter Benjamin
made a similar point: I think I am drawing on Benjamin.  Also, I think
the history of cinema is witness to this

I wonder, is a relationship between the "democracy" of which I speak
re: film and "literature"?  I think the (dreadful) art market is proof
of the un-democratic nature of "fine art" (and its institutions), its
elitism (as in classism), and its history of fetishsizing the
singular, discrete object.

Okay, I think I am going in multiple directions, but this is
interesting to think about, given I am not a film scholar, but an
(un-)art historian ...


Robert Summers, PhD
Lecturer ABD: Art History
Liberal Arts and Sciences Dept.
Otis College of Art and Design
9045 Lincoln Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA. 90045
e: [log in to unmask]
t: 310.665.6800

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On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:50 AM, D.Sutton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Mike, Hi Robert,
>
> You're sort of on the right wavelength. The term art is just generally
> unhelpful considering the process of production in cinema, as well as
> reception. When we get to criticism and theory, I think it becomes even more
> unhelpful for some of the same reasons that Robert identifies.
>
> You couldn't find a more fractious debate than one which tries to define art
> (and there are a few listservs I can point you to, one of which -
> Aesthetics-L - effectively imploded) but that's not the point.
>
> The honorific use of the term is at stake, and I would question its use for
> the same reasons that Aaron questioned the term 'text'. Calling cinema (or
> 'film') art attaches a specific set of criteria to the form that cinema
> almost never tries to match. The terms 'film' and 'art' and never used well
> together in film criticism, even by Bordwell and Thompson (do I go to Hell
> for saying that?)
>
> I like Robert's invocation of Foucault. However, I you substituted
> art/techne for 'design' then you'd be on the same wavelength as mine.
>
> Best
>
> Damian
>
>
> On 5/26/09 4:28 PM, "Frank, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> if what damian REALLY wanted [though i kinda doubt it] was to get rid entirely
>> of the concept "art" -- which is used more often than not as a highly
>> tendentious and untheorized honorific -- then i'm on board . . . all too often
>> it means little more than "my tastes [or my standards] are better than yours"
>>
>> so i can see why this might be categorized as micro-fascist
>>
>> but i fear that isn't what damian wanted at all
>>
>> tant pis
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------
>> when the ship is capsizing, the first thing jettisoned is integrity
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Film-Philosophy Salon [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
>> Of Robert Summers
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:50 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: FILM-PHILOSOPHY medium[Scanned-Clean]
>>
>> Chris Gooch, et al.,
>>
>> Who gets to decide what is "art" -- let alone what film is "art" and
>> what film is not "art"?  How is "art" even being defined as?  Let us
>> not assume "we" all agree to a definition in advance. Further, what is
>> the assumption/s behind your (and others) aforementioned statement?
>> Perhaps: "This is good; thus, this is art"?  What proceeds the
>> questions "is film art"?
>>
>> Personally, I would be hesitant to make any (ridged) binary
>> oppositions and hierarchies, and you are right to say this is an old
>> debate, which is one reason I am rather perplexed by its
>> (re-)emergence.  There seems to be a desire, right now on this
>> listserv, to categorize in ways that can be understood in Guattarian
>> terms as "mirco-fascist" molbilizations around objects and subject in
>> the world.
>>
>>
>> Robert Summers, PhD
>> Lecturer ABD: Art History
>> Liberal Arts and Sciences Dept.
>> Los Angeles, CA. 90045
>> e: [log in to unmask]
>> t: 310.665.6800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Contact: [log in to unmask]
>> **
>>
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