That's a charming response, Judy. I don't know about my being
well-intentioned, though: acquaintances have variously described me as the
village misanthrope and Der Geist, der stets verneint; all some kind
of -judice, of course - one of the greatest burdens of age is putting up
with one's soi-disant friends, I find.
Yours etc
Elderberry
_______________________________________
But I am but a nameless sort of person
(A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
- George Gordon, Lord Byron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy Prince" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Blake poem
> Martin, I don't know where we're going, but I know where I want to go. I
> want to be more aware of individuals, and you're helping me become more
> aware of you with this and so many of your previous posts. That's all to
> the good. I've rarely known a situation that wasn't helped by more
> information.
> Where else do I want to go? I want to ask questions and find out what a
> lot
> of folks think in their varied responses. I want to see people not as
> function-adjuncts of age, gender, ethnicity, professions, and prejudices.
> I
> want to find out their cherished memories and motivations, to know the
> best
> advice they have to give.
>
> I'm incredibly fortunate to be able to travel and to have available the
> internet so that I see, hear and read such an array of differences. Many
> of these differences have made me drop assumptions about individuals,
> their
> countries, and their governments. I told you that my 'not buying into'
> ageism is work---and so it is. It is work to think of each person without
> the old and automatic baggage learned over the years. I want to drop
> habits
> that hamper my valuing an individual as *that* individual, not a sum of
> categories into which the person can far too easily be placed.
> There's too much joy, knowledge, and fun, I think, that comes from
> dropping
> stereotypic assumptions. I don't agree with you that stereotypic
> assumptions are actually observations, or that comedy and tragedy in the
> classical tradition would be maimed by the elimination of such
> 'observations'. More important, though, is what any of us intends, what
> we
> intend behind and with our words. Our intentions are seldom known, though
> often guessed, by others, and often seldom known even by us.
>
> I think you are well-intended, and I'm enjoying our argument.
>
> Best,
>
> Judy
>
> 2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> Well, I don't buy into this argument at all, Judy. "-isms" "negative
>> stereotypes" - falaffel. Making observations about behaviour or a process
>> (of aging, for instance) has nothing to do with -isms or stereotypes. I
>> do
>> not define/defile someone by making observations unless I reduce them to
>> simplified or allegorized forms of such observations. Do you think Andrew
>> was reducing himself? If I say "some young people have lousy street
>> manners
>> & hog the sidewalk" you think I don't know about all the qualifying
>> circumstances? What is this? I personally feel awful about getting older
>> because my concentration & my physical tone is going - I may not joke
>> about
>> it to help myself gain some distance through laughter because the class
>> of
>> senior citizens is thereby defamed? Goodbye Shakespeare, goodbye Sterne,
>> goodbye Da Ponte/Mozart (who made the most awfully demeaning toilet jokes
>> in
>> his letters, simply brought shame & scandal to the noble realm of musical
>> composition), goodbye Fawlty Towers, Bill Hicks, shut up Joyce...where
>> are
>> we going?
>> cheers
>> Martin
>> _______________________________________
>> But I am but a nameless sort of person
>> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
>> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
>> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>>
>> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:43 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>>
>>
>> I wasn't joking, Martin, and I knew Andrew was being humourous. Folks
>>> apply
>>> PC differently and variously, but I wanted Andrew and others to consider
>>> the
>>> issue. I've certainly said ageist things about myself as do many
>>> over-50
>>> folks I know. Usually I've made the remark automatically as a brief,
>>> self-deprecating intro. No matter what the reason and circumstances may
>>> be,
>>> though, ageist comments are negative stereotypes. I'm trying to stop
>>> 'buying into' it, which is taking some work, but I think it's worth it.
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Judy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/4/2 Martin Walker <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>> I challenge this "ageist" thing, Judy (if you're not joking) - if a
>>>> retired
>>>> person can't indulge in a little self-mockery (as I understand Andrew
>>>> to
>>>> have been doing) then PC Orwell rules OK. So 65+s "fiddle and fart" - I
>>>> know
>>>> I do. It's an observation, that's all. I've got plenty of ageist
>>>> observations about young urban folks, specially girls, who are often
>>>> incredibly rude on the street nowadays: like, nobody else exists. But
>>>> hey,
>>>> they're not all like that.
>>>> mj
>>>> _______________________________________
>>>> But I am but a nameless sort of person
>>>> (A broken Dandy lately on my travels)
>>>> And take for rhyme, to hook my rambling verse on,
>>>> The first that Walker's Lexicon unravels
>>>>
>>>> - George Gordon, Lord Byron
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Prince" <
>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:42 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Blake poem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I challenge your tone [yes I know you're being humourous] about
>>>> retired
>>>>
>>>>> folk, 'Droo; it's ageist and makes me [can't speak for others] feel
>>>>> negative
>>>>> about retired folk. I hope we can be positive about folks who we
>>>>> don't
>>>>> feel
>>>>> are young. Our cultures [yours and mine] have a low opinion of old
>>>>> folks.
>>>>> It's a damaging stereotype and one of the most persistent, if we buy
>>>>> into
>>>>> it or accept it. Thanks for considering the issue.
>>>>> Now to your poem. I like it much much better! It's smooth, still
>>>>> very
>>>>> visual, and now makes clearer the narrative whole [start, middle,
>>>>> finish],
>>>>> so that the 'feel' and fact of your theme and point stay sharp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natch, tho, I always 'cut' redundancies and distracting excursions,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I've
>>>>> removed them, below. My opinion only, acourse! Figured you'd like
>>>>> that
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/4/2 andrew burke <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>
>>>>> What do retired people who write poetry do but fiddle and fart around
>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their own words. Here is the latest and perhaps last version of that
>>>>>> lumpy
>>>>>> text I threw at you earlier this week. Thanks to Judy, Patrick, Doug,
>>>>>> Frederick and anyone else who addressed the mess for me. Off list,
>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>> Taylor also helped steer me right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Poetical Works (title)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forty six years on
>>>>>> and still I warm my hands
>>>>>> over it. It opens me out like
>>>>>> a choir singing rounds
>>>>>> in eighteenth century London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I take it down from the shelf to
>>>>>> remember her, sophisticated lady
>>>>>> in a Sydney harbourside mansion who
>>>>>> placed Blake's poems in my hands
>>>>>> patted their flimsy skin, aged veinless patina.
>>>>>> 'We know you'll enjoy this, boy.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I went down my own back roads
>>>>>> through cities and fields,
>>>>>> an awkward pelican landing
>>>>>> on this seat this morning
>>>>>> remembering my bottle-scarred muse alive
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> with Blake's pulse in the skein of days.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------[altered by jp]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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