medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Jacobus" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 15 April 2009 22:23
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] [ [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in
chapels of ease)
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Fair point Jim, though it doesn't apply in Enrico's case. I've argued in
> various papers (and am getting round to doing so in print) that his tomb
> was well-advanced before his death, and he may even have gone so far as to
> have a life-cast of his face made for the effigy! As most of us can
> testify fromour different perspectives, they weren't so squeamish in those
> days...
>
> Laura
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jbugslag" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 14 April 2009 16:19
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] [ [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in
> chapels of ease)
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Laura,
> One further thought occurs to me from your last message. It is one thing
> to found a church
> and quite another to make arrangements for one's tomb. The latter was
> sometimes done by
> an individual during their lifetime, but often, as well, was left to the
> responsibility of the
> executors' of the will, and this process, particularly if it were
> complicated -- as one can
> imagine Enrico's to have been -- could take a long time to accomplish,
> holding up the making
> of the tomb for years sometimes. A well documented instance of the
> separateness of
> commissioning church and tomb is that of Philip the Bold's foundation of
> the Chartreuse de
> Champmol in Dijon and the commissioning of his tomb for that church.
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
> On 14 Apr 2009 at 11:51, Laura Jacobus wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Seems a consensus is emerging that as a founder, Enrico Scrovegni
>> would have had the right (by custom) to be buried in his estate
>> church. It's becoming clearer to me that if -as I think there may
>> have been- there was a delay in his endowing the chapel accordingly
>> and making space for his tomb, it's because of the peculiar
>> controversies surrounding his foundation of the church. That's a
>> whole other issue, but there were lingering doubts as to whether he
>> really did found the church, and it's interesting that in the
>> documents which endow the chapel and specify his burial arrangements
>> he begins with a preamble stressing how he built the church with his
>> own money.
>>
>> A lovely example of how this list solves a problem (to my
>> satisfaction, at least!) Many thanks to all,
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jon Cannon
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: 14 April 2009 02:30
>> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in chapels
>> of ease)
>>
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture Laura said: >This seems equivalent to an English estate
>> church or 'chapel of ease', and while I know > their patrons
>> eventually got buried in them too, I wonder whether they needed >
>> permission.
>>
>> ... Arguing from silence is a dangerous thing, and making a sweeping
>> statement thereof rasher still, but I have never come across the
>> issue of canonical permission being required for burial in an
>> English church. But burial was certainly controlled by custom and by
>> any religious community involved. The general pattern - already
>> outlined by several contributors - of founders' rights to burial
>> seems to me to pertain just as much to 'estate churches' as to the
>> nearest rich church or larger religious communities, but the status
>> level required to permit entry increases as one moves up the scale.
>> Christopher Wilson's brilliant article 'The medieval monuments' in
>> Collinson and Sparks, eds, A History of Canterbury cathedral (Oxford
>> UP, 1995) goes into great detail, with considerable documentary
>> support, with regard to who got buried where (and how that burial
>> was monumentally expressed) at c1200-c1500 Canterbury.
>>
>> And...
>> a
>> > community of three or four Augustinian canons. Would that count as
>> a > college of canons? Not strictly speaking, in that as
>> Augustinians they lived to a Rule and therefore counted as a small
>> monastic community. But as they were all by definition priested they
>> would have been most suitable to the saying of permanent chantry
>> masses. You might want to establish whether they were attached to a
>> larger community, or whether the foundation sets them up with an
>> endowment and accomodation of their own -- in which case the
>> difference between them and a small college of chantry priests is
>> rather academic.
>>
>> And ...
>> > I think
>> > they were probably chantry endowments anyway, since he'd certainly
>> added > the apse and built himself a tomb in it by the time of the
>> last endowment. > The gap between foundation and endowment puzzles
>> me - and that's why I'm > still not sure whether he built the church
>> with the intention of being > buried there. To muddy the waters
>> further, the family seems to have > already had funerary chapels
>> elsewhere in major Paduan churches.
>>
>> None of this sounds unusual. I've made a detailed study of
>> 14th-century patronage at St Augustine's, Bristol, one of hte more
>> architecturally remarkable 'dynastic burial houses'. It was clear
>> that during the period of the rebuilding of the east end, which had
>> built-in recesses for tombs designed into it, three successive lords
>> Berkeley sponsored aspects of the architecture, focusing on their
>> own presumed intended chantry chapels, and endowed chantry masses
>> and obits in varying proportions. All of this comes in the period
>> 1307-c1350, but the endowing of chantries came very late in the day:
>> there could be a big gap between architectural work, burial, and
>> final setting up of memorial masses, muddying the waters as to the
>> original intention. And at the same time they built, or added
>> priests to, or founded memorial masses at a wide range of religious
>> buildings on their demesne - a Cistercian abbey, a couple of parish
>> churches near their residences, several wayside chapels and
>> hospitals. The lord who was most generous to St Augustine's in terms
>> of chantry endowments was the only one of these not to be actually
>> buried there, though his first wife was. Nothing is ever simple!
>>
>> Telling you that you've just missed a three-day conference on
>> English chantry chapels - which would have addressed many of your
>> interests in endowment, etc - won't help, I'm sure, but the
>> proceedings will be published eventually!
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > >
>> > > All best
>> > >
>> > > Laura
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Thomas Izbicki" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > Sent: 13 April 2009 16:55
>> > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] burials in church
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>> and culture > >> > >> Laura, > >> Jim's message just reminded me of
>> two things: > >> - The ius patronatus of a chapel. Did it include a
>> right to burial? > >> Could the right to a chapel be sold? > >> - Is
>> there an Italian equivalent to the chantry? The literature on > >>
>> English chantry chapels is interesting, but I am unsure how
>> applicable it > >> is to Italy. > >> Tom Izbicki > >> > >> jbugslag
>> wrote: > >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>> religion and > >>> culture > >>> > >>> Laura, > >>> I've been
>> waiting for someone more learned on the matter than me to > >>>
>> weigh in on this, but my feeling is that, by 1300, burial in
>> churches > >>> was well on the way to becoming quite normal. Before
>> the 11th century, > >>> burial usually took place in the churchyard,
>> with the exception of "the > >>> very special dead", the saints in
>> other words, and with the equally > >>> important exception of
>> founders of churches and their families, which in > >>> the time
>> before the investiture controversy were very widespread. > >>>
>> Beginning in the 11th century, burials within churches began to >
>> >>> multiply. From founders, heads of religious institutions began
>> to > >>> demand this right, and from there, the floodgates opened.
>> Before the > >>> 13th century, church burial was still a highly
>> prestigious privilege, > >>> but even after it became quite common,
>> most people would have still been > >>> buried outside in the
>> churchyard. And initially, the cost of this > >>> privilege was
>> prohibitively high. At Peterborough in England, for > >>> example,
>> Abbot Ernulf (1107-1114) made an agreement between his convent > >>>
>> and those knights who held abbey lands, that a knight should pay
>> yearly > >>> two parts of his tithes and at his death a third of his
>> whole estate for > >>> burial in the church. As well, all his
>> "knightly endowments", including > >>> his horse and his arms were
>> to be brought with his body to the funeral > >>> ceremonies and
>> offered up to St Peter, at which time the convent > >>> received the
>> corpse in procession and performed the Office of the Dead. > >>> As
>> burial in the church became more common, the cost was undoubtedly >
>> >>> made more reasonable. By the later Middle Ages, it was
>> undoubtedly > >>> relatively inexpensive, yet other factors were
>> then involved in church > >>> burial. Under normal circumstances, an
>> individual was expected to be > >>> buried at his parish church
>> (whether inside or in the cemetery > >>> surrounding it), but the
>> appearance of the Mendicant orders changed that > >>> situation
>> dramatically. More and more, mendicant churches began to > >>>
>> compete with parish churches for the burial of citizens, to the
>> point > >>> where they were widely criticized for it. And the
>> concept of an > >>> Eigenkirche certainly did not go away. Both
>> monastic and collegiate > >>> churches were founded in the later
>> Middle Ages specifically as burial > >>> churches, either for
>> individuals or dynasties. Concurrently, private > >>> chapels within
>> larger churches began to proliferate. An indicative > >>> "early"
>> example is the Cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris; as built in the >
>> >>> late 12th and early 13th century, it was ringed with projecting
>> > >>> buttresses supporting the flyers above. During the late 13th
>> and early > >>> 14th centuries, the aisle walls were progressively
>> broken through, and > >>> private chapels built between the
>> buttresses, to the point where the > >>> entire cathedral was ringed
>> with private chapels. In Italy, such > >>> private chapels came to
>> be designed from the beginning, as at S. Croce, > >>> the Franciscan
>> church in Florence. Although I am not certain of the > >>> legal
>> basis for it, families could "buy" such chapels, although it was >
>> >>> not always the case that they accommodated burials. A good
>> source for > >>> this phenomenon, from an architectural point of
>> view, is H.M. Colvin's > >>> Architecture and the Afterlife, but I
>> can't remember whether he > >>> addresses the institutional aspects
>> of the phenomenon that you were > >>> enquiring after. Another
>> source that might be useful is Philippe > >>> Aries's encyclopedic
>> The Hour of Our Death, which certainly treats this > >>> phenomenon
>> from many perspectives in considerable detail. Erwin > >>>
>> Panofsky's book, Tomb Sculpture, may also be useful. In relation to
>> > >>> your specific topic, it strikes me that the Scrovegni family
>> was > >>> essentially emulating noble practice in founding a family
>> chapel that > >>> would accommodate burial. You might consider
>> "parallel" cases such as > >>> the Church of Notre-Dame at Ecouis,
>> founded in the early 14th century by > >>> Enguerrand de Marigny as
>> a dynastic burial church (cf the book on this > >>> by Dorothy
>> Gillerman) or the monastery of Tewkesbury in England, > >>>
>> refurbished as a dynastic mausoleum in the early 14th century by the
>> > >>> Despenser family. I hope your query provokes a response that
>> addresses > >>> legislation, because I am interested in it, too.
>> Cheers, > >>> Jim Bugslag > >>> > >>> On 12 Apr 2009 at 14:10, Laura
>> Jacobus wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly
>> discussions of medieval religion and > >>>> culture > >>>> > >>>>
>> Happy Easter and Passover to all. > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone tell me
>> what regulations or customs existed regarding > >>>> burials in
>> churches (thirteen and fourteenth century Italy being my > >>>> main
>> concerns)? I'm working on a private church (the Scrovegni Chapel >
>> >>>> in Padua), and my sense is that c.1300 it was still quite rare
>> for > >>>> lay-people to be buried in churches, though the practice
>> was gaining > >>>> in popularity and Italian churches began to
>> sprout private family > >>>> chapels for the purpose around this
>> time. I'd be particularly > >>>> interested to know whether private
>> churches or family chapels within > >>>> churches might have needed
>> a special license for burials, or whether > >>>> it was simply
>> assumed that patrons had the right to be buried in them. > >>>> >
>> >>>> All best > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>>> > >>>>
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** > >>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>> YOUR NAME > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to
>> the list, address it > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] To
>> leave the list, send the > >>>> message: leave medieval-religion to:
>> [log in to unmask] In order > >>>> to report problems or to
>> contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>>
>> [log in to unmask] For further information, >
>> >>>> visit our web site: > >>>>
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** > >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>> YOUR NAME > >>> to: [log in to unmask] > >>> To send a message
>> to the list, address it to: > >>> [log in to unmask] >
>> >>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >
>> >>> to: [log in to unmask] > >>> In order to report problems or
>> to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>
>> [log in to unmask] > >>> For further
>> information, visit our web site: > >>>
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>> > >> >
>> >>
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** > >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>> YOUR NAME > >> to: [log in to unmask] > >> To send a message to
>> the list, address it to: > >> [log in to unmask] > >>
>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > >>
>> to: [log in to unmask] > >> In order to report problems or to
>> contact the list's owners, write to: > >>
>> [log in to unmask] > >> For further
>> information, visit our web site: > >>
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > >
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>> YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to
>> the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To
>> leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to:
>> [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to
>> contact the list's owners, write to: > >
>> [log in to unmask] > > For further
>> information, visit our web site: > >
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > >
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR
>> NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list,
>> address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the
>> list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to:
>> [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact
>> the list's owners, write to: >
>> [log in to unmask] > For further information,
>> visit our web site: >
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free. Try it Now!
>> ********************************************************************
>> ** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR
>> NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list,
>> address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list,
>> send the message: leave medieval-religion to:
>> [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact
>> the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>> visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order
>> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>> visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|