JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  April 2009

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION April 2009

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Fw: [ [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in chapels of ease)

From:

Laura Jacobus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:53:49 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (375 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Jacobus" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious 
culture" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 15 April 2009 22:23
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] [ [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in 
chapels of ease)


> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Fair point Jim, though it doesn't apply in Enrico's case.  I've argued in 
> various papers (and am getting round to doing so in print) that his tomb 
> was well-advanced before his death, and he may even have gone so far as to 
> have a life-cast of his face made for the effigy!  As most of us can 
> testify fromour different perspectives, they weren't so squeamish in those 
> days...
>
> Laura
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "jbugslag" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 14 April 2009 16:19
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] [ [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in 
> chapels of ease)
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Laura,
> One further thought occurs to me from your last message.  It is one thing 
> to found a church
> and quite another to make arrangements for one's tomb.  The latter was 
> sometimes done by
> an individual during their lifetime, but often, as well, was left to the 
> responsibility of the
> executors' of the will, and this process, particularly if it were 
> complicated -- as one can
> imagine Enrico's to have been -- could take a long time to accomplish, 
> holding up the making
> of the tomb for years sometimes.  A well documented instance of the 
> separateness of
> commissioning church and tomb is that of Philip the Bold's foundation of 
> the Chartreuse de
> Champmol in Dijon and the commissioning of his tomb for that church.
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
> On 14 Apr 2009 at 11:51, Laura Jacobus wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Seems a consensus is emerging that as a founder, Enrico Scrovegni
>> would have had the right (by custom) to be buried in his estate
>> church.  It's becoming clearer to me that if -as I think there may
>> have been- there was a delay in his endowing the chapel accordingly
>> and making space for his tomb, it's because of the peculiar
>> controversies surrounding his foundation of the church.  That's a
>> whole other issue, but there were lingering doubts as to whether he
>> really did found the church, and it's interesting that in the
>> documents which endow the chapel and specify his burial arrangements
>> he begins with a preamble stressing how he built the church with his
>> own money.
>>
>> A lovely example of how this list solves a problem (to my
>> satisfaction, at least!)  Many thanks to all,
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>   From: Jon Cannon
>>   To: [log in to unmask]
>>   Sent: 14 April 2009 02:30
>>   Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in chapels
>>   of ease)
>>
>>
>>   medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>   culture Laura said:  >This seems equivalent to an English estate
>>   church or 'chapel of ease', and while I know > their patrons
>>   eventually got buried in them too, I wonder whether they needed >
>>   permission.
>>
>>   ... Arguing from silence is a dangerous thing, and making a sweeping
>>   statement thereof rasher still, but I have never come across the
>>   issue of canonical permission being required for burial in an
>>   English church. But burial was certainly controlled by custom and by
>>   any religious community involved. The general pattern - already
>>   outlined by several contributors - of founders' rights to burial
>>   seems to me to pertain just as much to 'estate churches' as to the
>>   nearest rich church or larger religious communities, but the status
>>   level required to permit entry increases as one moves up the scale.
>>   Christopher Wilson's brilliant article 'The medieval monuments' in
>>   Collinson and Sparks, eds, A History of Canterbury cathedral (Oxford
>>   UP, 1995) goes into great detail, with considerable documentary
>>   support, with regard to who got buried where (and how that burial
>>   was monumentally expressed) at c1200-c1500 Canterbury.
>>
>>   And...
>>    a
>>   > community of three or four Augustinian canons. Would that count as
>>   a > college of canons? Not strictly speaking, in that as
>>   Augustinians they lived to a Rule and therefore counted as a small
>>   monastic community. But as they were all by definition priested they
>>   would have been most suitable to the saying of permanent chantry
>>   masses. You might want to establish whether they were attached to a
>>   larger community, or whether the foundation sets them up with an
>>   endowment and accomodation of their own -- in which case the
>>   difference between them and a small college of chantry priests is
>>   rather academic.
>>
>>   And ...
>>   > I think
>>   > they were probably chantry endowments anyway, since he'd certainly
>>   added > the apse and built himself a tomb in it by the time of the
>>   last endowment. > The gap between foundation and endowment puzzles
>>   me - and that's why I'm > still not sure whether he built the church
>>   with the intention of being > buried there. To muddy the waters
>>   further, the family seems to have > already had funerary chapels
>>   elsewhere in major Paduan churches.
>>
>>   None of this sounds unusual. I've made a detailed study of
>>   14th-century patronage at St Augustine's, Bristol, one of hte more
>>   architecturally remarkable 'dynastic burial houses'. It was clear
>>   that during the period of the rebuilding of the east end, which had
>>   built-in recesses for tombs designed into it, three successive lords
>>   Berkeley sponsored aspects of the architecture, focusing on their
>>   own presumed intended chantry chapels, and endowed chantry masses
>>   and obits in varying proportions. All of this comes in the period
>>   1307-c1350, but the endowing of chantries came very late in the day:
>>   there could be a big gap between architectural work, burial, and
>>   final setting up of memorial masses, muddying the waters as to the
>>   original intention. And at the same time they built, or added
>>   priests to, or founded memorial masses at a wide range of religious
>>   buildings on their demesne - a Cistercian abbey, a couple of parish
>>   churches near their residences, several wayside chapels and
>>   hospitals. The lord who was most generous to St Augustine's in terms
>>   of chantry endowments was the only one of these not to be actually
>>   buried there, though his first wife was. Nothing is ever simple!
>>
>>   Telling you that you've just missed a three-day conference on
>>   English chantry chapels - which would have addressed many of your
>>   interests in endowment, etc - won't help, I'm sure, but the
>>   proceedings will be published eventually!
>>
>>   Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   > >
>>   > > All best
>>   > >
>>   > > Laura
>>   > > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>   > > From: "Thomas Izbicki" <[log in to unmask]>
>>   > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>   > > Sent: 13 April 2009 16:55
>>   > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] burials in church
>>   > >
>>   > >
>>   > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>>   and culture > >> > >> Laura, > >> Jim's message just reminded me of
>>   two things: > >> - The ius patronatus of a chapel. Did it include a
>>   right to burial? > >> Could the right to a chapel be sold? > >> - Is
>>   there an Italian equivalent to the chantry? The literature on > >>
>>   English chantry chapels is interesting, but I am unsure how
>>   applicable it > >> is to Italy. > >> Tom Izbicki > >> > >> jbugslag
>>   wrote: > >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>   religion and > >>> culture > >>> > >>> Laura, > >>> I've been
>>   waiting for someone more learned on the matter than me to > >>>
>>   weigh in on this, but my feeling is that, by 1300, burial in
>>   churches > >>> was well on the way to becoming quite normal. Before
>>   the 11th century, > >>> burial usually took place in the churchyard,
>>   with the exception of "the > >>> very special dead", the saints in
>>   other words, and with the equally > >>> important exception of
>>   founders of churches and their families, which in > >>> the time
>>   before the investiture controversy were very widespread. > >>>
>>   Beginning in the 11th century, burials within churches began to >
>>   >>> multiply. From founders, heads of religious institutions began
>>   to > >>> demand this right, and from there, the floodgates opened.
>>   Before the > >>> 13th century, church burial was still a highly
>>   prestigious privilege, > >>> but even after it became quite common,
>>   most people would have still been > >>> buried outside in the
>>   churchyard. And initially, the cost of this > >>> privilege was
>>   prohibitively high. At Peterborough in England, for > >>> example,
>>   Abbot Ernulf (1107-1114) made an agreement between his convent > >>>
>>   and those knights who held abbey lands, that a knight should pay
>>   yearly > >>> two parts of his tithes and at his death a third of his
>>   whole estate for > >>> burial in the church. As well, all his
>>   "knightly endowments", including > >>> his horse and his arms were
>>   to be brought with his body to the funeral > >>> ceremonies and
>>   offered up to St Peter, at which time the convent > >>> received the
>>   corpse in procession and performed the Office of the Dead. > >>> As
>>   burial in the church became more common, the cost was undoubtedly >
>>   >>> made more reasonable. By the later Middle Ages, it was
>>   undoubtedly > >>> relatively inexpensive, yet other factors were
>>   then involved in church > >>> burial. Under normal circumstances, an
>>   individual was expected to be > >>> buried at his parish church
>>   (whether inside or in the cemetery > >>> surrounding it), but the
>>   appearance of the Mendicant orders changed that > >>> situation
>>   dramatically. More and more, mendicant churches began to > >>>
>>   compete with parish churches for the burial of citizens, to the
>>   point > >>> where they were widely criticized for it. And the
>>   concept of an > >>> Eigenkirche certainly did not go away. Both
>>   monastic and collegiate > >>> churches were founded in the later
>>   Middle Ages specifically as burial > >>> churches, either for
>>   individuals or dynasties. Concurrently, private > >>> chapels within
>>   larger churches began to proliferate. An indicative > >>> "early"
>>   example is the Cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris; as built in the >
>>   >>> late 12th and early 13th century, it was ringed with projecting
>>   > >>> buttresses supporting the flyers above. During the late 13th
>>   and early > >>> 14th centuries, the aisle walls were progressively
>>   broken through, and > >>> private chapels built between the
>>   buttresses, to the point where the > >>> entire cathedral was ringed
>>   with private chapels. In Italy, such > >>> private chapels came to
>>   be designed from the beginning, as at S. Croce, > >>> the Franciscan
>>   church in Florence. Although I am not certain of the > >>> legal
>>   basis for it, families could "buy" such chapels, although it was >
>>   >>> not always the case that they accommodated burials. A good
>>   source for > >>> this phenomenon, from an architectural point of
>>   view, is H.M. Colvin's > >>> Architecture and the Afterlife, but I
>>   can't remember whether he > >>> addresses the institutional aspects
>>   of the phenomenon that you were > >>> enquiring after. Another
>>   source that might be useful is Philippe > >>> Aries's encyclopedic
>>   The Hour of Our Death, which certainly treats this > >>> phenomenon
>>   from many perspectives in considerable detail. Erwin > >>>
>>   Panofsky's book, Tomb Sculpture, may also be useful. In relation to
>>   > >>> your specific topic, it strikes me that the Scrovegni family
>>   was > >>> essentially emulating noble practice in founding a family
>>   chapel that > >>> would accommodate burial. You might consider
>>   "parallel" cases such as > >>> the Church of Notre-Dame at Ecouis,
>>   founded in the early 14th century by > >>> Enguerrand de Marigny as
>>   a dynastic burial church (cf the book on this > >>> by Dorothy
>>   Gillerman) or the monastery of Tewkesbury in England, > >>>
>>   refurbished as a dynastic mausoleum in the early 14th century by the
>>   > >>> Despenser family. I hope your query provokes a response that
>>   addresses > >>> legislation, because I am interested in it, too.
>>   Cheers, > >>> Jim Bugslag > >>> > >>> On 12 Apr 2009 at 14:10, Laura
>>   Jacobus wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly
>>   discussions of medieval religion and > >>>> culture > >>>> > >>>>
>>   Happy Easter and Passover to all. > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone tell me
>>   what regulations or customs existed regarding > >>>> burials in
>>   churches (thirteen and fourteenth century Italy being my > >>>> main
>>   concerns)? I'm working on a private church (the Scrovegni Chapel >
>>   >>>> in Padua), and my sense is that c.1300 it was still quite rare
>>   for > >>>> lay-people to be buried in churches, though the practice
>>   was gaining > >>>> in popularity and Italian churches began to
>>   sprout private family > >>>> chapels for the purpose around this
>>   time. I'd be particularly > >>>> interested to know whether private
>>   churches or family chapels within > >>>> churches might have needed
>>   a special license for burials, or whether > >>>> it was simply
>>   assumed that patrons had the right to be buried in them. > >>>> >
>>   >>>> All best > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>>> > >>>>
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** > >>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>>   YOUR NAME > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to
>>   the list, address it > >>>> to: [log in to unmask] To
>>   leave the list, send the > >>>> message: leave medieval-religion to:
>>   [log in to unmask] In order > >>>> to report problems or to
>>   contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>>
>>   [log in to unmask] For further information, >
>>   >>>> visit our web site: > >>>>
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>>> > >>>
>>   > >>>
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** > >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>>   YOUR NAME > >>> to: [log in to unmask] > >>> To send a message
>>   to the list, address it to: > >>> [log in to unmask] >
>>   >>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >
>>   >>> to: [log in to unmask] > >>> In order to report problems or
>>   to contact the list's owners, write to: > >>>
>>   [log in to unmask] > >>> For further
>>   information, visit our web site: > >>>
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >>> > >> >
>>   >>
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** > >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>>   YOUR NAME > >> to: [log in to unmask] > >> To send a message to
>>   the list, address it to: > >> [log in to unmask] > >>
>>   To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > >>
>>   to: [log in to unmask] > >> In order to report problems or to
>>   contact the list's owners, write to: > >>
>>   [log in to unmask] > >> For further
>>   information, visit our web site: > >>
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > >
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>>   YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to
>>   the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To
>>   leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to:
>>   [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to
>>   contact the list's owners, write to: > >
>>   [log in to unmask] > > For further
>>   information, visit our web site: > >
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > >
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR
>>   NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list,
>>   address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the
>>   list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to:
>>   [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact
>>   the list's owners, write to: >
>>   [log in to unmask] > For further information,
>>   visit our web site: >
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>   Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free. Try it Now!
>>   ********************************************************************
>>   ** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR
>>   NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list,
>>   address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list,
>>   send the message: leave medieval-religion to:
>>   [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact
>>   the list's owners, write to:
>>   [log in to unmask] For further information,
>>   visit our web site:
>>   http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order
>> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>> visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> 

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager