JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  April 2009

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION April 2009

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Fw: [M-R] burials in church (and in chapels of ease)

From:

Laura Jacobus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:41:52 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (213 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Jacobus" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 13 April 2009 18:03
Subject: Re: [M-R] burials in church (and in chapels of ease)


> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Very many thanks for all the replies so far, and do please keep them
> coming! There's plenty to follow up already, but in answer to questions
> which have been raised-
>
> In this case the Scrovegni held onto the ius patronatus (advowson?)
> through several generations and hedged it about with various conditions to
> stop it being sold, but it did eventually get sold anyway. I seem to
> recall that the sale had to be ratified by the bishop, as this was one of
> the original conditions. I've not come across anything stating that the
> ius patronatus included the right to burial, and my guess is that it was
> unconnected to this right by legal means- but from Jim's reply it may have
> been connected by custom ie burial rights may have been one of the
> unofficial perks of founding your own church. I wish I knew the answer
> with respect to chantries, but my sense is that Italian private chapels
> within churches were pretty much the same thing.
>
> Getting back the the Scrovegnis, there is a theory that the church was
> intended as the founder's 'mausoleum' but I find this hard to prove one
> way or another as he was eventually buried in an apsidal chapel that was
> added to the original church. It's this that made me wonder whether he
> needed permission, and whether that had been witheld at the time he built
> the church but was later granted, necessitating the addition. The
> original permit to build is only known through hearsay, but it suggests
> that he was given permission to build it as a convenient place of worship
> for members of his household, nothing more. This seems equivalent to an
> English estate church or 'chapel of ease', and while I know their patrons
> eventually got buried in them too, I wonder whether they needed
> permission.
>
> All best
>
> Laura
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Izbicki" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 13 April 2009 16:55
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] burials in church
>
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> Laura,
>> Jim's message just reminded me of two things:
>> - The ius patronatus of a chapel. Did it include a right to burial?
>> Could the right to a chapel be sold?
>> - Is there an Italian equivalent to the chantry? The literature on
>> English chantry chapels is interesting, but I am unsure how applicable it
>> is to Italy.
>> Tom Izbicki
>>
>> jbugslag wrote:
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>> culture
>>>
>>> Laura,
>>> I've been waiting for someone more learned on the matter than me to
>>> weigh in on this, but my feeling is that, by 1300, burial in churches
>>> was well on the way to becoming quite normal. Before the 11th century,
>>> burial usually took place in the churchyard, with the exception of "the
>>> very special dead", the saints in other words, and with the equally
>>> important exception of founders of churches and their families, which in
>>> the time before the investiture controversy were very widespread.
>>> Beginning in the 11th century, burials within churches began to
>>> multiply. From founders, heads of religious institutions began to
>>> demand this right, and from there, the floodgates opened. Before the
>>> 13th century, church burial was still a highly prestigious privilege,
>>> but even after it became quite common, most people would have still been
>>> buried outside in the churchyard. And initially, the cost of this
>>> privilege was prohibitively high. At Peterborough in England, for
>>> example, Abbot Ernulf (1107-1114) made an agreement between his convent
>>> and those knights who held abbey lands, that a knight should pay yearly
>>> two parts of his tithes and at his death a third of his whole estate for
>>> burial in the church. As well, all his "knightly endowments", including
>>> his horse and his arms were to be brought with his body to the funeral
>>> ceremonies and offered up to St Peter, at which time the convent
>>> received the corpse in procession and performed the Office of the Dead.
>>> As burial in the church became more common, the cost was undoubtedly
>>> made more reasonable. By the later Middle Ages, it was undoubtedly
>>> relatively inexpensive, yet other factors were then involved in church
>>> burial. Under normal circumstances, an individual was expected to be
>>> buried at his parish church (whether inside or in the cemetery
>>> surrounding it), but the appearance of the Mendicant orders changed that
>>> situation dramatically. More and more, mendicant churches began to
>>> compete with parish churches for the burial of citizens, to the point
>>> where they were widely criticized for it. And the concept of an
>>> Eigenkirche certainly did not go away. Both monastic and collegiate
>>> churches were founded in the later Middle Ages specifically as burial
>>> churches, either for individuals or dynasties. Concurrently, private
>>> chapels within larger churches began to proliferate. An indicative
>>> "early" example is the Cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris; as built in the
>>> late 12th and early 13th century, it was ringed with projecting
>>> buttresses supporting the flyers above. During the late 13th and early
>>> 14th centuries, the aisle walls were progressively broken through, and
>>> private chapels built between the buttresses, to the point where the
>>> entire cathedral was ringed with private chapels. In Italy, such
>>> private chapels came to be designed from the beginning, as at S. Croce,
>>> the Franciscan church in Florence. Although I am not certain of the
>>> legal basis for it, families could "buy" such chapels, although it was
>>> not always the case that they accommodated burials. A good source for
>>> this phenomenon, from an architectural point of view, is H.M. Colvin's
>>> Architecture and the Afterlife, but I can't remember whether he
>>> addresses the institutional aspects of the phenomenon that you were
>>> enquiring after. Another source that might be useful is Philippe
>>> Aries's encyclopedic The Hour of Our Death, which certainly treats this
>>> phenomenon from many perspectives in considerable detail. Erwin
>>> Panofsky's book, Tomb Sculpture, may also be useful. In relation to
>>> your specific topic, it strikes me that the Scrovegni family was
>>> essentially emulating noble practice in founding a family chapel that
>>> would accommodate burial. You might consider "parallel" cases such as
>>> the Church of Notre-Dame at Ecouis, founded in the early 14th century by
>>> Enguerrand de Marigny as a dynastic burial church (cf the book on this
>>> by Dorothy Gillerman) or the monastery of Tewkesbury in England,
>>> refurbished as a dynastic mausoleum in the early 14th century by the
>>> Despenser family. I hope your query provokes a response that addresses
>>> legislation, because I am interested in it, too. Cheers,
>>> Jim Bugslag
>>>
>>> On 12 Apr 2009 at 14:10, Laura Jacobus wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>> Happy Easter and Passover to all.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me what regulations or customs existed regarding
>>>> burials in churches (thirteen and fourteenth century Italy being my
>>>> main concerns)? I'm working on a private church (the Scrovegni Chapel
>>>> in Padua), and my sense is that c.1300 it was still quite rare for
>>>> lay-people to be buried in churches, though the practice was gaining
>>>> in popularity and Italian churches began to sprout private family
>>>> chapels for the purpose around this time. I'd be particularly
>>>> interested to know whether private churches or family chapels within
>>>> churches might have needed a special license for burials, or whether
>>>> it was simply assumed that patrons had the right to be buried in them.
>>>>
>>>> All best
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>>>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order
>>>> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>>>> visit our web site:
>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>> to: [log in to unmask]
>>> To send a message to the list, address it to:
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
>>> to: [log in to unmask]
>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> For further information, visit our web site:
>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>>
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> To send a message to the list, address it to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> For further information, visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager