On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:33:48 -0700, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:

Thanks Doug.  Perhaps I reacted a bit too strongly to Kasper's diction "integrity as a 
poem", which evoked New Critical demands still surprisingly encountered on occasion 
these days, though I outgrew them forty years ago.  I've rarely had any difficulty 
accepting any construct Jerome Rothenberg, David Antin, and George Quasha wanted 
readers to include under their expanded definitions of a poem.  So, yes, the work I did on 
the 9 lines written down while watching was certainly motivated by an attempt to make 
an object which would be recognized as a poem.

Barry


Barry>This is a question of perception of what a poem can be, Barry, I  
>suspect. It took me a long long time, but my 'definition' of poetry  
>has grown wider & wider. WHat you do with what you hear/see at films  
>is highly poetic to me, & you seem to have a great eye/ear for the  
>phrases that count. Certainly here, & whether or not we notice that  
>you had altered & shaped to a turn the half-sonnet, that structural  
>fact does count in terms of its success (at least with a reader like  
>me).
>
>Doug
>On 14-Jan-09, at 8:20 AM, Barry Alpert wrote:
>
>> If I step back and read my text as a relatively objective critic, I  
>> find that each line can be
>> interpreted on its own, without particular reference to the film.   
>> Should one happen to see
>> the film after reading my text, the immediate context of each line  
>> would be revealed but
>> that wouldn't add much to my articulation of the subject.  Two other  
>> readers found that
>> this text was less intimidating than other works of mine written  
>> while watching films.  I
>> care very little about its "integrity" as a poem though I altered  
>> lines to simulate a
>> conversational half-sonnet with a "turn" of its own.  Take it as  
>> ekphrastic writing which I
>> was lucky enough to quarry out of the occasion.  In fact, I wasn't  
>> able to bring to a
>> publishable state anything I wrote during my witnessing of the other  
>> 3 films by Teuvo
>> Tulio in the mini-retro.  The unexpectedly striking quality had worn  
>> off for me, and the
>> subtitles were not poetic.
>>
>> Barry Alpert
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:26:45 +0200, kasper salonen  
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> not familiar with the historic gem you cite, but Kaurismäki & von  
>>> Bagh are
>>> familiars.
>>>
>>> the snap I can't, shan't, comment on: the context is not wholly  
>>> known to me,
>>> & even then I question its integrity as a poem due to the superhigh
>>> referential element.
>>>
>>> KS
>>>
>>> 2009/1/7 Barry Alpert <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>> THE SONG OF THE SCARLET FLOWER
>>>>
>>>>       via Teuvo Tulio, Aki Kaurismaki, & Peter von Bagh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You've liked something and then suddenly you lose interest.
>>>>
>>>> You've plowed so much today.
>>>>
>>>> You were made to wander.
>>>>
>>>> You can't shoot these rapids.
>>>>
>>>> You take us--why don't you rather keep us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now I know what it is to long.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Barry Alpert / Silver Spring, MD US / 1-7-09 (10:51 AM)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Written during my first viewing of this dazzling Finnish melodrama  
>>>> directed
>>>> and edited by
>>>> Teuvo Tulio in 1938 and revived for screening outside Finland  
>>>> because of
>>>> the efforts of
>>>> the leading contemporary Finnish director Aki Kaurismaki and the  
>>>> major
>>>> Finnish film
>>>> historian and critic Peter von Bagh.  I have to admit that I was  
>>>> wary of
>>>> this film because
>>>> of the diction of the advance publicity ["wildly melodramatic",
>>>> "exaggerated metaphor
>>>> and feeling"], but once I granted this director his "donne", I  
>>>> found that
>>>> the numerous
>>>> films I had already witnessed by Aki Kaurismaki, not to mention  
>>>> Douglas
>>>> Sirk and Rainer
>>>> Fassbinder, had prepared me for and allowed me to enjoy the  
>>>> excesses.  I'm
>>>> looking
>>>> forward to the remaining 3 films in the mini-retrospective at the  
>>>> National
>>>> Gallery of Art.
>>>>
>>
>
>Douglas Barbour
>[log in to unmask]
>
>http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>
>Latest books:
>Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
>http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
>Wednesdays'
>http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.html
>
>Oh, goddamnit, we forgot the silent prayer.
>
>             Dwight D, Eisenhower
>             [at a cabinet meeting]