Thanks for all the comments.
Obviously, the first response I have is for Larry (though I deal with Helen and
Dawna's comments below). I hope it isn't too "perverse" and "hypocritical" to
say that I sincerely hope that you will indeed still be with us after the New
Year! I have just had a year of depression, and, whilst never getting to the
point of actually making the decision to commit suicide, I have spent many
hours wondering what point there was to living. At the worst times, the only
answer was that there are people and pets that would miss me (though in the
case of the cats it would only be until someone fed them!), and that was a good
enough answer to keep things plodding on. The point of that - well, Larry, YOU
would be missed a great deal :)
Dignity is a difficult concept to quantify - I've not seen an adequate
definition anywhere. There are both an external and an internal component.
Whilst people can ask for dignity to be granted from others, the measure of
dignity is always defined by the individual - for instance, I would not find it
dignified to be granted a knighthood (not that it will ever happen!), but I do
find it dignified to help someone who has become incontinent to be clean. There
are others who would consider those to be the wrong way round.
It seems to me to be all about self-image. Ronald Dworkin writes in "Life's
Dominion" about a woman that wanted to die before she became demented. That
didn't happen, and she slipped into the very pleasant form of dementia where
she was extremely happy, and to all intents and purposes enjoyed her life.
There are many stories about people who expressed the desire to die in the
event of severe injury, but changed their minds. I acknowledge that these
things happen. Equally, I have been caring for a man with dementia who suddenly
seemed to realise what was happening to him, and begged to die as he had been
promised with by his family in the event of him requiring full-time care. I'll
be honest and say that I am such a relativist that I have not filled out a
living will, because I just don't know which way it would go if I suddenly
became para/quadriplegic, or started to dement. However, I would like the
choice. I'm reasonably certain that I would not like to live on a ventilator
for the rest of my life, or in a persistent vegetative state (though that
raises a whole set of questions on its own). I just do not want to be dependent
in the sense of someone else has to do the basics for me - feeding, cleaning,
dressing, etc. Larry, I do accept that we are all somehow dependent on others,
but there are limits.
This is turning into an essay, and I don't want to go on too long, but I'd like
to quickly reply to Helen and Dawna:
Helen - yes, I have seen that the Dutch system has flaws, and I'm disappointed.
However, I do believe that better regulation can prevent this. No-one should
have to wear a "Do not kill me" token!! The only person that can decide that
life is intolerable is the person living it.
Dawna - thanks for putting it better than I could. It is the semi-Pavlovian
response that I was referring to, but didn't realise it. I'm not sure how to
get around the medicalisation of these issues - people tend to lean heavily of
the medics in times like these, and the idea of a painless, dignified death
would necessarily require medical input. However, reducing the overall
influence of the medical profession would be a good thing.
Sorry for the length of the post, but the issue is huge, and the comments worth
responding to.
Yours,
Jeremy.
--
Jeremy Wickins,
PhD Researcher,
School of Law,
University of Sheffield,
Bartolome House,
Sheffield. S3 7ND
UK.
Quoting Larry Arnold <[log in to unmask]>:
> WE ARE ALL DEPENDANT, yep especially the Royal Family.
>
> As John Donne said, "no man is an island"
>
> As for me I am just a peninsula it seems.
>
> I'd be hypocritical if I disavowed suicide as an option having eventually
> chosen not too commit suicide this Christmas (although I was seriously
> thinking about it), because although it would be a damned fine and poetic
> gesture (Thomas Chatterton and all that) I know it would inconvenience for
> too many other people, not least the hire company I will be hiring a car
> from.
>
> So if I don't appear in the new year, assume natural causes or an accident.
>
> Although we should all have autonomy and choice, don't impose your death
> wish on anyone else, that is the crime of it. To me suicide should be a
> choice one can make because one has had enough of the tribulations of this
> world, but dependency is not to my mind one of them.
>
> I am dependent on the railways for goodness sake, but just cos a train is
> late, tis no reason to throw myself on the tracks, in fact the reason I
> don't do that is because people who do annoy me, cos they hold the trains
> up.
>
> Life has it's highs and lows, my mum spent her last years in severe
> dependency and pain, but in her dependancy she was still autonomous, and
> autonomy is the thing, not independence, which no one but Robinson Crusoe
> ever achieved. (and then he had the ships salvage to depend upon)
>
> If you are so perverse that you want to end it, do it now while you still
> can or so help me I'll come round and sort you out before you have even
> decided :)
>
> There is no dignity after all, dignity in whose eyes, as God said to Adam
> "who told thee thou wast naked?" Don't be fooled by the illusory dignity of
> public approbation or disaprobation. That is the worry that one can become a
> victim to someone elses concepts of dignity not ones own.
>
> Where was our dignity before we knew it existed, when we were born into this
> world "mewling and puking" as dependent as you could ever be.
>
> Larry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> > Jeremy Wickins
> > Sent: 10 December 2008 17:56
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Assisted suicide
> >
> > Sorry, folks, but I have to come clean - I support assisted
> > suicide for adults (Colin's recent post about children has me
> > very concerned though). I do not EVER want to live in a way
> > that leaves me dependent on others for long periods of time,
> > whether that is due to physical incapacity or something like
> > dementia, and I want the law to allow someone that I trust to
> > enable me to be killed if I cannot do it for myself. I am not
> > on my own in this - there are a lot of us.
> > That does not make us cowards, uncaring, or barbarous - we
> > merely have a different concept of dignity from those who
> > think that life is to fought for until the very end. It is a
> > matter of choice - I respect the choice of those that want to
> > keep going until the body gives up, but I expect the same
> > respect to be given to my choices. Of course, the default
> > position must be to continue life if there is no indication
> > that assisted death or refusal of life-saving treatment is
> > desired by the incapacitated individual, and if there is any
> > doubt, then independent arbiters are required.
> >
> > Where does the fear come from in the disabled community? Is
> > it from the idea that people with different abilities will be
> > compulsorily killed? That makes no sense at all - this is not
> > Nazi Germany. Is it that some people might be persuaded to
> > die who might not really want to? Well, that is a
> > possibility, that must be guarded against, but, on the other
> > side, what about those who will be persuaded to live past the
> > point that life has become truly hateful due to pain or
> > indignity by friends or relatives too afraid to face death?
> > It is time that the "lessons" of a particularly disfunctional
> > political experiment two-thirds of a century ago were put
> > into perspective, instead of distorting views long after the
> > whole thing collapsed.
> >
> > The disabled community is based on dignity and choice, so
> > why, when it comes to deciding that a person wishes to die at
> > a time and in a way that s/he feels dignified, do so many
> > people whose views I hold in great esteem get so
> > paternalistic? By all means, identify where any such law
> > could go wrong so that safeguards can be put in place, but
> > please don't try to stop me and people like me having a
> > choice. Life CAN sometimes be genuinely not worth living.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jeremy Wickins,
> > PhD Researcher,
> > School of Law,
> > University of Sheffield,
> > Bartolome House,
> > Sheffield. S3 7ND
> > UK.
> >
> >
> > Quoting Colin REvell <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> > > Wednesday, December 10, 2008 The Scots: Let's Allow
> > Assisted Suicide For
> > > CHILDREN It's coming thick and fast now, folks. Killing
> > people, that is,
> > > especially in the UK If you're going to be an overachieving
> > country,
> > > it might as well be in the realm of assisted suicide.Dan James.
> > > Valerie Grosvenor Myer. And tonight's Sky Real Lives
> > channel airing
> > > of the filmed assisted suicide of Craig Ewert.Remember, in
> > all these
> > > cases, part of the pro-killing argument was that it wasn't
> > the act of
> > > assisted suicide that was bad; it was those pesky laws in
> > the UK that
> > > prevented it. So, aided and abetted by the largely
> > uncritical media,
> > > the clarion call came from the seat of the former
> > > Empire: We need to change the law.Not wanting to be seen as
> > retrograde
> > > neanderthals to their English cousins, the Scots have stepped in to
> > > take the lead. Scotland's The Herald reports today that a
> > Scottish MP,
> > > Margo MacDonald, is planning to introduce legislation that would
> > > legalize assisted suicide for children.No, I'm not kidding. Wish I
> > > were. Here's MacDonald's
> > > rationale: In Scotland, when parents divorce, and the
> > children are 12
> > > or older, the court takes into consideration the child's
> > choice as to
> > > which parent they wish to live with. Under some circumstances, the
> > > living choice is offered to younger children. So, goes
> > MacDonald, why
> > > not give the same legal status for choices about living or
> > dying?Get a
> > > load of the proposed legislation's slimy rationale: The outlined
> > > proposal would allow patients with degenerative, irreversible
> > > conditions to approach a doctor who would be specially
> > registered to
> > > help terminate life at the patient's request. OK, that's standard
> > > let's-kill-you-when-you-have-a-bad-disease language.But, listen to
> > > this: Assisted suicide would also be possible for patients who
> > > unexpectedly became incapacitated to an "intolerable"
> > degree, or who
> > > simply find their life "intolerable" - although the latter
> > case would
> > > require the doctor to seek a second opinion from another health
> > > professional. So, now, if you think any "incapacitation"
> > you have is a
> > > drag, or even if you think your life is just yucky, you have a way
> > > out. Remember, because we don't want to be too hasty, for
> > this aspect
> > > of the legislation you'll have to find not one, but two doctors who
> > > agree you should be done in. (Shouldn't be difficult with a little
> > > doctor-shopping for medicos who share the pro-killing view of the
> > > world). And now, potentially, in Scotland, you don't even
> > have to wait
> > > until you're legally an adult.Children have rights too, you
> > know.Above
> > > taken from Dr Mark Mostert disability/bioethics blog at Disability
> > > Matters:- http://disabilitymatters.blogspot.com"Nazi's All Over
> > > Again?"; It's here at Useless Eaters:-
> > > http://www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters Colin Revell
> > >
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