Jason wrote: "I even have an entire chapter about ethnography and initiation, and how ethnographers who approach Paganism and magick sometimes choose to go through actual initiations, or how, even if they choose not to, they describe their experiences in the language of rites of passage. And it's become almost a cliche at this point, but still true, to compare the academic process to magickal initiation, complete with the medieval hooding ceremony."

Right on!  Ronald Hutton has a chapter in _Druids, Witches and King Arthur_ in which he compares magical initiation systems to academia, essentially arguing that academia is the only modern institution with public tripartite rites of initiation for its members.

And in a wonderful paper at the Pagan Studies Conference at Claremont last year, Steve Wehmeyer sketched the medieval and folkloric roots of the concept of the school for magic or wizardry which has, of course, been taken up by a number of fantasy authors, from Ursula K. Le Guin and J.K. Rowling to Diana Wynne Jones.  So the parallells between magical systems and academia are many, and the connections complex.

BB,
Sabina




Sabina Magliocco
Professor and Chair
Department of Anthropology
California State University - Northridge
18111 Nordhoff St.
Northridge, CA  91330-8244
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jason winslade [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 7:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Magick and the Academy (was Theater and Magic(k))

Sabina, thanks for articulating much better what I was trying to say, especially about subjectivity and objectivity being relative not fixed. I completely agree about ethnography and magic - in fact, I found myself coming to the same conclusions in my dissertation before I read your book. I even have an entire chapter about ethnography and initiation, and how ethnographers who approach Paganism and magick sometimes choose to go through actual initiations, or how, even if they choose not to, they describe their experiences in the language of rites of passage. And it's become almost a cliche at this point, but still true, to compare the academic process to magickal initiation, complete with the medieval hooding ceremony.

Oddly enough, even after I was no longer practicing the Wheel of the Year with a magickal community (not because I quit, but because the group imploded), my final year of dissertating seemed to follow a pattern: Defense at Spring Equinox, completing revisions at Beltane, graduation and hooding at Summer Solstice, then later, interviews at AAR at Samhain.

--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Sabina Magliocco <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Sabina Magliocco <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theater and Magic(k)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 12:51 AM


Morgan wrote: "In fact this process of switching subjective/objective is
essential to magic (as I know it)."

It is also essential to ethnography, which is why I argue that ethnography is
in fact a form of magic.

Who says there's no magic in the academy? ;-)

BB,
SM

Sabina
 Magliocco
Professor and Chair
Department of Anthropology
California State University - Northridge
18111 Nordhoff St.
Northridge, CA  91330-8244
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Morgan Leigh
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theater and Magic(k)

Greetings,

>An author who is a practitioner can choose which glasses to wear, and
when: s/he may choose to fully immerse her/himself in a magical
experience while >it is happening, then switch glasses and write about
it from a more impartial point of view for an academic audience.

Absolutely. In fact this process of switching subjective/objective is
essential to magic (as I know it). There's little use in having a
 ritual
experience if one can't integrate it into one's life, and life contains
objective and subjective. This is one reason magical diaries are so
important.

Regards,

Morgan Leigh
PhD Candidate
School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
University of Queensland
religionbazaar.blogspot.com

Sabina Magliocco wrote:
> In fact this happens all the time in academia: for example, the majority
of scholars in Jewish Studies are themselves Jewish, and no one questions their
objectivity when they write about their subject matter.  What's important is
not whether the author belongs to a group or not, it's whether the author
can take a viewpoint that can be impartial towards the group -- that can fairly
illustrate both strengths and shortcomings without simply taking a position of
advocacy.
>
> I think what we need to keep in mind is the following: first,
"subjectivity" and
 "objectivity" are relative, not absolute
positions.  And secondly, these are not essences; they are  points of view.
Think of them as glasses that we can put on, chaging our perspective on what we
are examining.  An author who is a practitioner can choose which glasses to
wear, and when: s/he may choose to fully immerse her/himself in a magical
experience while it is happening, then switch glasses and write about it from a
more impartial point of view for an academic audience.  S/he can even alternate
stances within a single academic work -- see, for example, the work of Karen
McCarthy Brown on a Vodou priestess in Brooklyn (_Mama Lola_), or Paul Stoller
on sorcery in West Africa, or Kirin Narayan on Hindu storytellers, or my own
work on modern Pagan Witches in the US.
>
> Of course, in Anthropology these days, taking a position of advocacy is in
some circles de rigeur; see, for instance, the most recent
 work of Charles
Briggs and Nancy Scheper-Hughes.
>
> Sabina
>
> Sabina Magliocco
> Professor and Chair
> Department of Anthropology
> California State University - Northridge
> 18111 Nordhoff St.
> Northridge, CA  91330-8244
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven .
[[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:53 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theater and Magic(k)
>
> It would really depend on what type of Christian was writing about what
type of Christianity. e.g. If a Protestant writes about Catholicism then they
would not be a practicing member, same goes for a Branch Davidian writing about
the People's Temple. "Christianity" is a sweeping term
 that
accommodates too much to be meaningful in this regard.
>
> I think what Shaz is saying that when an academic writes a book they are
expected to be completely objective. Adding the academic credentials of an
author or publisher to a book gives it a measure of authority. The danger is
that this authority will be usurped to give subjective work credence. If a
practitioner writes a book then this raises the question of conflicting
interests and thus undermines the perception of impartiality. As long as they
are open about where they are coming from and remain objective then I don't
think there is a problem with a member of a given tradition writing scholarly
work about their belief system. After all, non-practitioners can be just as
biased (most notably in the case of works about Satanism).
>
> Steven Gil
> School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
> University of Queensland,
 Australia
> hellhoundshowl.blogspot.com
>
>> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:23:09 +1100
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theater and Magic(k)
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Greetings Shaz,
>>
>>> If a book is printed by someone who presents himself (or herself)
as a
>>> scholar, say a university press publishes it, I expect it to be
written
>>> with scientific objectivity, at least as much as the person(s) can
>>> muster. That does not mean I expect the writer(s) to completely
>>> disconnect themselves from the material. The study would not be
>>> complete without a subjective look. But I would not expect the
>>> writer(s) to be practising members of the subject of the book.
>> So all academic books on Christianity written by
 Christians should not
>> be published by academic publishers?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Morgan Leigh
>> PhD Candidate
>> School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
>> University of Queensland
>> religionbazaar.blogspot.com
>>
>> Shaz Dair wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> It has been well established in the academic community for many
years
>>> that science is not the big answer to it all (i.e. Huston Smith -
The
>>> Forgotten Truth .1977)
>>>
>>> As with all things the result desired is relative. If one works
for a
>>> university and is commissioned to study or write on a cultural
>>> phenomenon more often than not it can be assumed the desired
perspective
>>> for the project is one of objective observer rather
 than
practitioner
>>> and representative of that phenomenon.
>>>
>>> If a book is printed by someone who presents himself (or herself)
as a
>>> scholar, say a university press publishes it, I expect it to be
written
>>> with scientific objectivity, at least as much as the person(s) can
>>> muster. That does not mean I expect the writer(s) to completely
>>> disconnect themselves from the material. The study would not be
>>> complete without a subjective look. But I would not expect the
>>> writer(s) to be practising members of the subject of the book.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if I see a book written by an author who
presents
>>> himself (or herself) as a practitioner of that subject (i.e.
Magick) I
>>> will expect the author(s) to be members of that group and I
 will
allow
>>> for possibly the complete lack of objectivity. However, I always
find
>>> the attempt to be scientific a sign the author is trying to be
>>> objective, which is a quality I like, IMHO. I would also expect
the
>>> work to be published by a different sort, like Weiser or
Llewellyn.
>>>
>>> What I have seen most often is writers who will edit an occult
work by
>>> someone else and impose their criticisms on it, often revealing
their
>>> own bias and origin. One example I like is Meric Casaubon's, A
True and
>>> Faithful Relation...
>>>
>>> Personally, I think it is possible to be an aethiest or agnostic
and
>>> still practice angel magic. Psychic phenomena is a field that will
>>> allow such perspectives in Magick practice and research.
>>> I try to
 never forget to step back and examine my motives,
conceptions
>>> and actions. It would be dangerous to have false confidence in
fields
>>> touching on the deep mind.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>>
>>> Marc Carter
>>> <Label Here>
>>> ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Morgan Leigh
<[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The Enlightenment myth that science is (a) totally objective and
that
>>> (b) it can do every thing, answer every question, fill every void
is
>>> well past its
>>> use by date IMHO. Science is not inherently objective. This is
because
>>> it is done by humans, who are inherently subjective. How do we put
>>> ourselves
 outside of our humanity to interpret the data we obtain
>>> scientifically? We can, and should, recognise the importance of
seeking
>>> objectivity. But to presume we can attain it every time we
undertake a
>>> research endeavour is ludicrous. Not that I am ranting or
anything...
>>>
>>> People like Dawkins, who push their view on others on the basis
that
>>> it's scientific and that that in of itself makes it inherently
superior
>>> to any other
>>> view, drive me crazy... He's a fundamentalist scientismist. He
makes
>>> people laugh at the academy. Ok, now I am ranting...
>>>
>>> /me takes a deep breath
>>>
>>> I think we are here to DO subjectivity, but I see that this is
>>> contingent on the existence of objectivity. We need both. To see
the
>>>
 balance we need to understand and cherish subjectivity. Just as we
can't
>>> attain perfect objectivity, we can't totally transcend our
inherently
>>> subjective nature. The present state of enquiry in academia is out
of
>>> balance. The balance is the goal. The middle way.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Morgan Leigh
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
>>> University of Queensland
>>> religionbazaar.blogspot.com
<http://religionbazaar.blogspot.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>> jason winslade wrote:
>>>> Should we really assume that "objectivity" and
science are
>>> unassailable
>>>> discourses? That they are the norm from which experiential
data
>>>> deviates? This is a whole other can of
 worms, but attaching
>>> 'scientific'
>>>> to scholarly discourse makes a whole other set of assumptions
that are
>>>> just as flawed as subjectivity.
>>>> jlw
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Mon, 12/15/08, Shaz Dair /<[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>/* wrote:
>>>> From: Shaz Dair <[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>> Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theater and Magic(k)
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 4:54 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As scholars we have a duty to be objective and scientific.
>>>> As to the limits of scientifically studying personal human
>>>>
 experience, we can still step back from our current persona
and
>>>> connect with other people in an attempt to share honestly our
>>>> experience and knowledge as well as our uncertainties.
Cultural
>>>> Anthropology is an excellent field for just this type of
immersion
>>>> in the pool of our subject matter and then the time of sitting
>>>> beside the pool drying off.
>>>> As Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth
living."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Arild <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> performances that incorporated spiritual discourse and
>>> embodied
>>>>>
 experience, especially at conferences; the SIEF conference
>>>> "Liberating
>>>>> the Ethnological Imagination," in Derry, N. Ireland
last
>>> June had
>>>> As a folklorist, I should say that in that case, SIEF has
>>> come a
>>>> long way in
>>>> the last 10 years. During my couple of decades in the
>>> Ethnology
>>>> and Folklore
>>>> Departement at the University of Bergen, this wold've been
>>> far from
>>>> happening. But so much the better!
>>>>
>>>> Arild
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>> --
>
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