In the history of Ceremonial Magic, rather than in Neo- or ancient Pagan religions, what was the group ritual situation? I know John Dee had Edward Kelly... But is there a history before the Golden Dawn of multiple participants in a Ceremonial Magic ritual?

~Caroline.


---- Morgan Leigh <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
> Greetings,
> Sir David Attenborough has posited that the Australian aborigines were
> using ritual/dance/music to convey spiritual meanings for a very long
> time. He asserts that this form of communication predates language in
> all humans by quite a long time.  I can't remember the source on this
> but I was reminded of it recently when watching one of his docos...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Morgan Leigh
> PhD Candidate
> School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
> University of Queensland
> religionbazaar.blogspot.com
> 
> Shaz Dair wrote:
> > Good for you, Caroline, or at least I agree with your sentiments about
> > solitude during ritual.  It seems to be an individual choice which is
> > more to one's liking, solitude or a group.
> >  
> >      In my opinion, performing ritual in public groups should be limited
> > to celebrations like holidays, when there is a parade or something like
> > that.  If one's intention in the ritual is to evolve spiritually (the
> > Great Work,) it wouldn't be helpful to have all the distractions of
> > other people.  If we are evolving individually, then the experiences
> > would differ greatly.  The ineffable is most difficult to share,
> > especially with the uninitiated.  That isn't to say that one couldn't
> > find a reason to unify a crowd for a specific purpose...
> >  
> > As far as origins of ritual, I think we are overlooking the probability
> > that it was in early primary societies when the leaders of the tribe and
> > shamans would present for the tribe, dance and drum.  This would far
> > pre-date written history and animal parts for dress would quite probably
> > be ubiquitous. 
> >  
> > If we are talking about western ceremonial traditions, perhaps the
> > origins would be in Mesopotamia, Sumer or Babylon and then Egypt.  Due
> > to the proximity of these societies (including Greece) trade would bring
> > the cultures closer together and the mingling of cultures could
> > influence the ritual structures of the magicians in each city.
> > 
> > Pax et Lux,
> > Marc Carter
> > Issaquah, WA
> >  
> > P.S. Hi everyone, I am new.
> >  
> > On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:48 AM, Caroline Tully <[log in to unmask]
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > 
> >     Yes, you're right. I suppose I am more interested in doing ritual by
> >     myself or with one other person. I find I get a better results and
> >     can concentrate better. Ritual I do in groups – which would mainly
> >     be the Gnostic Mass – just seems less 'magical'. I don't go very
> >     deep in that situation. Perhaps it depends on who else is in the
> >     ritual, in fact I think it does. Invariably public ritual involves
> >     incorporating people you don't like and I've decided to stop
> >     participating in rituals with people who I don't even want to be
> >     social with.
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     ~Caroline.
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     *From:* Society for The Academic Study of Magic
> >     [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Sabina
> >     Magliocco
> >     *Sent:* Saturday, 13 December 2008 9:41 AM
> > 
> >     *To:* [log in to unmask]
> >     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >     *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theatre and Magic(k)
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     I think it was the California group NROOGD (New Reformed Orthodox
> >     Order of the Golden Dawn) that had/has an offshoot, Magical Acts
> >     Ritual Theater.  At cons and festivals, Magical Acts regularly gives
> >     workshops on how to conduct good theatrical rituals.
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     There are lots of confluences between theater and ritual.  Need I
> >     remind everyone that the roots of Western theater lie in the Attic
> >     festival of Dionysus?  But beyond that, doing a ritual for more than
> >     just a very small group inevitably involves theatrical aspects. 
> >     Even in a relatively small group, there are aspects of ritual that
> >     involve enacting something, and these can be most effective if they
> >     involve sensory stimuli. 
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     Then there's the whole question of acting the part of vs. embodying
> >     deities.  While the difference may seem quite distinct, I think
> >     there's more of a continuum; acting a part may be a doorway into
> >     "aspecting" or possession.
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     Sabina
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     *From:* Society for The Academic Study of Magic
> >     [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of
> >     *Caroline Tully
> >     *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 2:16 PM
> >     *To:* [log in to unmask]
> >     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >     *Subject:* [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Theatre and Magic(k)
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     Speaking of the crossover between theatre and magic(k), now I
> >     remember when I came across the Caliphate OTO in Australia in the
> >     early 90s, they were also into Golden Dawn style ritual and I
> >     remember the Master of the group telling me that most of his Golden
> >     Dawn group members joined because they **thought it would help them
> >     with their acting / theatre work** - his social scene was very into
> >     performance art. I was disgusted at that, because I considered that
> >     the joining of a magical order should be purely for exploration of
> >     magical ritual, or at least primarily for that purpose. I don't
> >     necessarily think that now. Around that time I started to see
> >     material coming out from, I think it was either Church of All Worlds
> >     or Reclaiming, on how to make really theatrical rituals... specific
> >     workshops on how to do that. You do need to do a good theatrical job
> >     when performing big public rituals, of course. (Well, do you? I mean
> >     what is this? Magic(k) or religious spectacular? My idea of magic(k)
> >     is intense focus on the task at hand, not **performing** for other
> >     people, I've always been rather annoyed at that, I mean when I've
> >     found myself in those performance situations, but that's me – I
> >     guess CAW and Reclaiming are really 'Pagan' rather than 'Magical'..
> >     although that could be debated and participants do claim to be doing
> >     'magic').  Also, of course the G.D and O.T.O. rituals **are** very
> >     much like being in a play (not that I've ever been in a play –
> >     because acting is the last thing I want to do ever - but I have read
> >     some)!
> > 
> >      
> > 
> >     ~Caroline.
> > 
> > 
> 
> --