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POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC  October 2008

POETRYETC October 2008

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Subject:

Re: 2 poems

From:

Frederick Pollack <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc: poetry and poetics

Date:

Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:33:18 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

Thanks, Judy. -- I didn't realize till you said it that AC thought S J Lec's 
aphorisms "sexist" --- This is inconceivable.  This whole PC style of 
rhetoric (I can't call it "thinking") in which one's subjective (and perhaps 
tendentious and strained) negative association with a phrase is treated as 
a) a real insight into the phrase and its maker, and b) grounds for morally 
condemning them - is destructive and contemptible.  It resembles nothing so 
much as Palin-thought.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Judy Prince" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: 2 poems


> To Alison and Barry, actually, and to Fred and Kasper indirectly:  I can't
> for the life of me see sexism [against females] in anything Fred's written
> in these messages in apparent response to Barry's posting of Lauterbach's
> work.  If we substitute 'he' for 'she', we come up with an equally 
> effective
> damning of what Fred thinks is silly, fakey, outmoded, bad poetry and bad
> poetry-reading.  Labeling folks as 'sexist' requires careful thought.  If 
> we
> know that Fred pretty continuously damns female poets and not male poets, 
> I
> should think we'd have a possible case against his views, but I simply 
> don't
> know that that is the case.  He, as I can recall, strongly dislikes poetry
> with a certain worldview---whether males' or females' poetry.
> Further on the subject of sexism:  If behavior typically associated with
> females is damned, what's wrong with that?  I think everything's right 
> with
> it.  Many of Sarah Palin's behaviors, for example, are very much those
> typically associated with females, and they're rightfully thought 
> repugnant.
> Where's an argument in any of that?  Sexism---against males as well as
> females covers _far_ more serious ground than what you have raised here
> about Fred's 'take' on Lauterbach.  It's well for us, all of us, to open 
> up
> such a discussion of sexism, as well as racism, so that we can KNOW what 
> we
> think and feel.  Poets as starters of the discussion?----a fabulous
> beginning to an essential, fundamental, crucial debate.
>
> And further, If folks disagree with Fred's opinion, let them go ahead and
> give theirs rather than 'red herring' us with 'isms'.  If their opinion is
> given as artfully as Fred has given his, then I'm sure it will receive due
> attention.
>
> Still further, and for Alison, the cannibal and ventilator quotes that
> Kasper contributed are neither racist nor sexist---though perhaps
> animalist---and they're hilarious.
>
> Best,
>
> Judy
>
>
> 2008/10/7 Frederick Pollack <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: 2 poems
>>
>>
>>  You know, the funny thing is that I could let Frederick's obvious
>>> sexism go by without a ruffle (and it's not for me to arbitrate,
>>> anyway) - but Kasper, this is a horrible and utterly racist quotation.
>>> And damn the accusations of PC, which are often just lazy defences of
>>> lazy bigotries.
>>>
>>>
>> For the record, I absolutely deny sexism, "obvious" or otherwise.
>>  Including "sexist" intent in my original phrase "meaty masterpiece." 
>> The
>> kind of reasoning Barry Alpert showed in a) calling ME sexist because 
>> that
>> phrase struck HIM as sexist, as well as b) intimating that La Auerbach is
>> beyond attack because she has garnered po-biz and academic honors, is not 
>> to
>> be tolerated.  But the bleating of a herd of PC-liberals is as little
>> susceptible to argument as a swarm of rightists.  I will NOT get into an
>> IDIOTIC pseudo-controversy of this sort, which always results in someone
>> leaving the list in a self-righteous huff.  I'll just go back to my usual
>> lurking state.
>>
> 

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