JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  October 2008

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION October 2008

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Tintinabulae in Chartrain Pilgrims' Badges? [<saints of the day 21. October]

From:

Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:31:19 -0400

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (391 lines) , tizbicki.vcf (12 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

I checked Constantine VII ceremonial book, & no bells mentioned in the 
account of coronation ceremonial.  One mention of a baldachin in Book II 
c. 1.
Tom Izbicki

Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
>
>   
>> I suspect it would be worth looking to ceremonial from the East to determine
>>     
> if the umbrella came from Constantinople.
>
>
> this is the kind of question that an article in Cabrol/Leclercq's Dictionnaire
> would easily (and definitively) answer. 
>
> i'd go so far as to say that the answer is in those 20 vols, somewhere, but
> just can't think of which article might discuss it --there is no "Processions"
> article, per se.
>
> nor is there one on "Tintinabulum."
>
> if anyone has a suggestion as to where to look for suchlike processional
> accessories, i've got a copy near to hand.
>
>
> meanwhile....
>
> i see that the link which i sent to the Chartres badge containing the
> unidentifiable artifacts being caried in a procession,
>
> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/forgeais/forgeais4_115.jpg
>
> did not transmit to the list as it should have --if you're getting a "Not
> Found" error massage, join the "4_" part to the "115.jpg" to complete it or
> try 
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5sfhvt
>
>
> i am now leaning towards seeing the objects being carried on either side of
> the image of the Virgin & Child on the litter as higly stylised Tintinabulae
> --the small size of the badge and utter lack of artistic resources on the part
> of the mould maker simply did not allow for any more detail in their
> presentation, but the shape is, generally, the right one and fits better than
> an interpretation as any kind of conopeum/ombelino/bumbershoot.
>
> clearly the procession which is being depicted on the badge is an important
> one, with the (major?) image of the Virgin being carried on a litter --other
> badge images, visible here 
>
> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/newbadges.html
>
> show the reliquary containing the _sancta camisia_ of the Virgin being carried
> in the same(?) procession.
>
> am i correct in assuming that this would be a commemoration of *the* major
> feast of the Virgin --Assumption Day, perhaps?
>
>
> Note: Pippin Michelli's fine article, "A Gordian Knot: Notes on Chartres
> Pilgrim Badges", in _Perigrinations. Publication of the International Society
> for the Study of Pilgrimage Arts_ (I, ii, July 2002, pp. 2-4), can be found
> here http://peregrinations.kenyon.edu/vol1-2.pdf
>
> c
>
> ----- Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:10:50 PM EDT
> From: Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 21. October
>
>   
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> I suspect it would be worth looking to ceremonial from the East to 
>> determine if the umbrella came from Constantinople.
>> Tom Izbicki
>>
>> Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>     
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>
>>> From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Note the papal colors on that bumbershoot.  It's a _conopeum_ or
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> _ombrellino_, the usual visible sign of a papal basilica. 
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> See (lower down) here:
>>>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilique_religieuse
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> and here:
>>>> http://www.saintspeterandpaul.us/basilica.htm
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> well, Truth be Told, my lack of Expertise in the sub-specialty of
>>>       
> Bumbershoot
>   
>>> Iconography is only marginally greater than in that of Laptop History, so
>>>       
> i
>   
>>> suppose i'll have to accept your word for how suchlike artifacts should
>>>       
> be
>   
>>> properly nomenclatured.
>>>
>>> however, as to the colors, it seems that the b&w woodcut of the Chartres
>>> badge
>>>
>>> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/forgeais/forgeais4_ 115.jpg
>>>
>>> rather accurately the [lack of] polychromy on the original, which was in
>>> pewter.
>>>
>>> 12th-13th c. Chartres cathedral not being (to my knowledge) a Papal
>>>       
> Basilica,
>   
>>> my best guess is that some Papa or other simply stole the idea of using a
>>> Liturgical Bumbershoot as part of the Armes of suchlike a building.
>>>
>>> what struck me about the original German example on the page you quoted
>>>       
> was
>   
>>> its shape, which echoed somewhat the unusual form of the artifacts which
>>> appear on the Chartres badge.
>>>
>>> of course, the German one is in its Flacid/Non-Erect posture, presumably
>>>       
> for
>   
>>> interior viewing; while the one on the coats of armes which you indicated
>>> above are in the Full Upright, Erect & Ready-for-Action Mode.
>>>
>>> so, the question remains, why didn't the "artist" who created the figures
>>>       
> on
>   
>>> the Chartres artifact depict that mode --if, indeed, his spade-like
>>>       
> Whatsits
>   
>>> are even Bumbershoots at all-- since his objects are clearly an important
>>>       
> part
>   
>>> of the processional scene he's trying to represent?
>>>
>>>
>>> i note, with regret, that neither "conopeum" nor "ombrellino" rated an
>>>       
> article
>   
>>> in Cabrol-Leclercq's massive _Dictionnaire d'archeologie et de liturgie
>>> chretienne_; which is a great shame, since i'm sure that those guys could
>>>       
> have
>   
>>> Done a Number on the pre-Carolingian history of suchlike Thingies.
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> A search for 'conopeum' in Google images will brings up several
>>>>         
> examples.
>   
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> as well it should.
>>>
>>> facinating stuff
>>>
>>> http://www.sms.si.edu/IRLSpec/Conope_seurat.htm
>>>
>>> http://www.marlin.ac.uk/species/Conopeumreticulum.htm
>>>
>>> ahhh... here's one being carried in the Non-Erect position
>>>
>>>
>>>       
> http://lh4.ggpht.com/chris.ochoa/SB2bp1B7cFI/AAAAAAAAEBw/pG46ElwXM30/s720/DSCF2920.jpg
>   
>>> or, perhaps, these ones don't really open up like Normal Bumbershoots and
>>>       
> the
>   
>>> ones on the Papal Basilican Armes are just overly-optimistic and
>>>       
> suffering
>   
>>> from Viagra posioning?
>>>
>>> butbut, no, Wait!
>>>
>>> the could the thingies on the badge be, not Bumbersooteums at all, but
>>>       
> rather
>   
>>> Tintinnabulae?
>>>
>>> yes, the Chartres artifacts 
>>>
>>> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/forgeais/forgeais4_ 115.jpg
>>>
>>> do, indeed, closely resemble
>>>
>>> http://home.online.no/~araronse/Mycenakey/tintinnabulum.htm
>>>
>>> or even (less likely)
>>>
>>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Tintinnabulum.jpg
>>>
>>> or some middlevil variant of the one on the left here
>>>
>>>
>>>       
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Procession_of_the_Precious_Blood_of_Jesus_Christ-Bruges;_het_conopeum.JPG
>   
>>> this sort of Thingie, 
>>>
>>> http://www.katholiek.org/pictures/tintinnabulum.jpg
>>>
>>> but without the sharp peak at the top.
>>>
>>> a liturgical bell, carried on a pole in processions.
>>>
>>> it it my Firm Belief that the Chartres Pilgrims' Badges, crude though
>>>       
> they
>   
>>> are, depicted scenes which would have been immediately recognizable --in
>>>       
> all
>   
>>> their details-- to anyone who had actually gone to the cathedral and
>>>       
> witnessed
>   
>>> them. 
>>>
>>>
>>> otOh, the images.google.com search also turned up this Looser
>>>
>>>
>>>       
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/06/images/20040617-4_012t2497-515h.jpg
>   
>>> which suggests, unless i'm seriously misunderestimating it, that this
>>> Innernets Thingie is not quite perfected.
>>>
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> c
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:23 am
>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 21. October
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>           
> culture
>   
>>>>> From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> 3)  Wendelin (d. later 6h or early 7th cent.?).  
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>>  
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> In about 1050 _Basonis villare_, now St. Wendel in the Saarland, 
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> began to be
>>>>> called by the name of its saint.  Its originally fourteenth-century
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>> church
>>>   
>>>       
>>>>> dedicated to him houses his putative remains in a raised tomb 
>>>>> (Hochgrab) that
>>>>> was dedicated in 1360.  Some exterior views of the church:
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Other interior views of the church, including (lower down on the 
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> page) views
>>>>> of the tomb, will be found here:
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> http://www.sankt-wendelinus.de/index.php?id=196
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> listmembers cursed with exceptionally good memories may recall that 
>>>>> the topic
>>>>> of Liturgical/Processional Umbrellas came up a couple of years ago --in
>>>>> connection with their appearance on at least one Pilgrims' Badge from
>>>>> Chartres.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/newbadges.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://ariadne.org/cc/badges/forgeais/forgeais4_115.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> here's a nice one, which seems to echo the (somewhat unusual?) form of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> Chartres exemplars:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sankt-wendelinus.de/typo3temp/pics/d7cbdb981a.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> an expandable view is available on the original page, near the bottom:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sankt-wendelinus.de/index.php?id=196
>>>>>
>>>>> keep in mind that the Chartres badge is quite small and, in quality,
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>> hardly
>>>   
>>>       
>>>>> "high" art --scale isn't really a consideration.
>>>>>
>>>>> anyway, they look more like bumbershoots than digging spades, if we
>>>>>           
> have
>   
>>>>> something to compare them to.
>>>>>
>>>>> c
>>>>>           
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>   


**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996


WWW.JISCMAIL.AC.UK

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager