JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for BRITARCH Archives


BRITARCH Archives

BRITARCH Archives


BRITARCH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

BRITARCH Home

BRITARCH Home

BRITARCH  September 2008

BRITARCH September 2008

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Ferrybridge Chariot (ceramics experts?)

From:

Beatrice Hopkinson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

British archaeology discussion list <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:16:41 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

Hi John,

     I have always wondered why the Bretons were not affected by the
Hallstatt culture and whether they were bi-passed for  geographical
reasons - and it sounds like you can answer that question :)

Bea



[log in to unmask]

>Hi Mark,
>
>The main problem is in trying to pin culture on "nations" instead of 
>ideas. With your modern examples, "Chinese" and "Japanese" do not 
>express the culture anywhere nearly as close as "consumerism" with the 
>national labels becoming merely an expression or added quality. So a 
>better picture would be presented by saying "massive economic expansion 
>of Japan catering to the consumerism of the 1970's and 1980's", and then 
>you could track that back to beginnings in the Edo period and expansions 
>in the Meiji period and so on.
>
>You could not, however, apply the same ideas of trade to the Celtic La 
>Tł«ne, because anything even vaguely resembling consumerism was more the 
>province of the Greeks and Romans. The Celtic expansion was accomplished 
>through warfare -- not with the long outdated idea of them invading 
>places like Britain from some sort of ethnic homeland in the middle of 
>Europe, but with them forming very large armies to serve the needs of 
>the Greeks and others. Some of these troops coming from previously 
>Celtic speaking  areas such as Britain -- but most coming from what is 
>now France, and especially a broad band curving southwestwards toward 
>eastern Armorica from Picardy .This was in combination with other such 
>movements such as that of the Boii and its main focus was into northern 
>Italy, capturing only the areas they needed for their bases (this is a 
>great simplification because there were other Celtic developments in 
>northern Italy and to the north growing out of earlier cultures). La 
>Tł«ne really developed because of the "Italian connection" and should not 
>be seen as just a style of art, but a socio-religious movement having 
>much to do with warfare; Greek ideas which became synthesized with the 
>previous Celtic ideas growing out of the Neolithic and, very 
>importantly, a massive increase in wealth that started in about 400 B.C 
>(instigated mainly by Dionysius I of Syracuse). The return of the Celts 
>to their homes after the successful expansion of the Romans in about the 
>2nd century B.C. focused much of that wealth in a smaller area and thus 
>changed the Celts social structures to a very great degree.
>
>Even though it has been many years since Jope dismissed the ideas that 
>La Tł«ne art was spread by trade, the understanding of that is still only 
>very slowly catching on. The art came with people and the artists were 
>of very high status. As such (as can be learned from remnants of 
>practices in Ireland and Scotland), the artists could only really take 
>up residence in areas that had a very strong agricultural base -- 
>especially in cattle. They had retainers -- and cattle, with the land 
>needed to support it was one of the main ways that the complicated 
>socio-political structures operated (roughly the later clan system but 
>with a Druidic class that combined nobility with religious/philosophical 
>factors).
>
>The common idea that a small elite somehow managed to operate along 
>with, and yet apart from, "native" farmers who did not really change, is 
>so simplistic as to be essentially wrong. The indigenous people were an 
>important part of the structure, and while there was no need for them to 
>change their day to day localized practices of farming and building 
>their homes etc. they were partly serving the elite with labour in 
>exchange for various sorts of patronage and were thus part of the 
>"tribe". The tribes were divided into factions and the tribes were 
>associated with each other along factional lines as well as through 
>various confederations, but the La Tł«ne thread permeated it all. La Tł«ne 
>iconography was internally varied, yet was a shared visual vocabulary 
>which carried the same meanings wherever it shows up. Again, forgive me 
>for my brevity in trying to condense many books, papers and years of 
>observations of the material record into four paragraphs!
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
>> On 9/3/2008, "John Hooker" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> Following along from this, someone like Simon James comes along and says 
>>> "there was no unified Celtic culture" because  he really believes that 
>>> to be the case, or John Collis comes along and says the same thing 
>>> because he really wants us to prove that he is wrong -- then the great 
>>> unwashed public starts to believe that "Celtic" is a naughty word. They 
>>> are then told to replace it with "Iron Age" (so as not to confuse the 
>>> dears) and then some of us Celticists who have achieved varying levels 
>>> of connoisseurship in our respective, and undoubtedly anal retentive, 
>>> specialties shake our heads and say "but...?"
>>>     
>>
>> But doesn't this really boil down to how ones define culture, and the
>> role of "stuff"--ie material culture in reflecting the said culture?
>> And how much ink has been spilled on that topic over the years.
>>
>> I mean thousands of years from now are some archaeologists going to
>> wonder about the massive Japanese migrations of the 1970s and 1980s, and
>> then the massive Chinese migrations of post 2000?  Sure, we have a
>> written record that tells us otherwise now, but can we really be sure it
>> will last?
>>
>> Best, MEH
>>
>>
>>   

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998


WWW.JISCMAIL.AC.UK

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager