What an interesting discussion - and Maggie, yes, I was noting a 
pressure to do one rather than the other - and that that tends to leave 
the student still hungry and unable to fish!
I would be happy to participate in a wider project on this, but am a 
University Teaching Fellow, not a National one!

Maggie - what an excellent site - well done!
Best
Sandra

Maggie Boyle wrote:
> Thank you to Pauline and David for pointing out that starving people
> need fish.  Indeed in a sense that is part of the point that Kegan makes
> about how to 'reel in' students.  I think the point I was making is that
> as a group of practitioners we need to have a view of the complexities
> of development work: the development of individuals and organisational
> development.
> 
> We are in the process of defining (and defending) our practice.  We need
> to make sure that we make arguments that enable us to do both the
> feeding and the teaching.  I felt Sandra was expressing a pressure to do
> more of one than the other and hence my exploration of how we might
> express what we are trying to do.
> 
> Have a good weekend 
> Maggie
> 
> PS Thanks for the feedback about our new website.  If anyone has spotted
> any problems or would like to comment about the balance of 'feeding and
> teaching' please feel free to use our feedback page on the site.
> 
> PPS I'm very sorry for having overdone the fishy metaphor :-)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: learning development in higher education network
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Bowers
> Sent: 26 September 2008 09:07
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Writing style guide
> 
> Very succinctly and sensitively put, Pauline. That corresponds to our
> experience.
> 
> A juicy worm of some immediate and practical help is often what is
> needed to tempt the students through our doors, then we might be able to
> hook them and gradually reel them in towards a deeper understanding over
> time. (That's quite enough fishy metaphors for one day!)
> 
> I support Peter's idea of wider strategies for developing confidence and
> autonomy in academic practice, we'd be interested.
> 
> Finally, congtratulations to Maggie and Leeds team for a very
> professional web presence.
> 
> David
> 
> David Bowers
> Head of Learning Development
> University Campus Suffolk
> (Shortlisted for THE Widening Participation Initiative of the Year 2008)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: learning development in higher education network
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pauline Ridley
> Sent: 25 September 2008 18:58
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Writing style guide
> 
> Great idea Peter. 
> I think the whole issue of 'giving out fish rather than teaching to
> fish' is an interesting one, for staff development as well as learning
> dev. If someone is really hungry, you may need to give them a fish
> before they can build up the strength to take a fishing lesson... OK end
> of metaphor! 
> 
> What I mean is that although - of course - we want to build people's
> capacity rather than just drill them, it's also the case that we need to
> be sensitive to what they need or want at any particular moment. An
> anxious 1st year (or new lecturer) may not be ready to engage in a
> discussion of underlying issues until their confidence has grown enough
> for them to feel able to look at things in more depth. Sharing 'tips and
> strategies' can build trust and confidence and provide a basis for
> future work Pauline
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: learning development in higher education network
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Hartley
> Sent: 25 September 2008 09:15
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Writing style guide
> 
> I think that Maggie has highlighted one of the most important points (if
> 
> not the most important) about 'new' HE learners and it is one we are
> wrestling with. Given that we now have a  healthy smattering of NTFS in
> our constitutency, could this be the focus for an NTFS bid in 2009,
> looking at different strategies for developing and encouraging
> self-management with the emphasis on how learning development could
> support course teams. Bradford would be up for it.
> 
> Peter
> 
> Maggie Boyle wrote:
> 
>>Sandra says 'as a learning developer I am rarely asked to speak to 
>>students about making notes - but often asked to give sessions on 
>>referencing'.
>>
>>Are we being asked to 'give out fish rather than teach people how to 
>>fish'?
>>Are such requests more likely to foster surface learning rather than 
>>deep learning?
>>Are we being pushed into training rather than education?
>>
>>We have been developing online learning resources as part of our work 
>>with LearnHigher and our commitment under the TQEF money that has been
> 
> 
>>used to fund us here in Leeds.  I have been very aware that it is
> 
> easier
> 
>>to create interactive material that drills rather than fosters 
>>understanding and a change in the practices and approaches students
> 
> use.
> 
>>It would be interesting to research which sort of learning development
> 
> 
>>support is more likely to 'develop' students. I'm going to attempt to 
>>use our evaluation to look at how to answer this question.
>>
>>Have a look at our new website and the resources we have collected and
>>created: http://skills.library.leeds.ac.uk I'd be interested in your 
>>comments and especially any thoughts you may have about whether the 
>>resources are more likely to encourage student development or surface 
>>learning.
>>
>>I wonder whether any of you have read R. Kegan, In over our heads:
>>Mental demands of Modern Life?
>>
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Over-Our-Heads-Mental-Demands/dp/0674445880/ref=
> 
>>sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222328991&sr=1-1
>>He is a psychologist and has a lot to say in the book about designing 
>>curricula for HE students.  One of his points (as I understand it) is 
>>that students, because of their developmental stage at the age of
> 
> 18-21,
> 
>>are more likely to turn up to a class on speed reading rather than one
> 
> 
>>on managing your reading approach as they are not yet ready to be 
>>self-managing.  We have to learn how to encourage them to develop 
>>themselves rather than teach them how to read faster but we might in
> 
> the
> 
>>first instance have to attract them by telling them we are helping
> 
> them
> 
>>to read faster.  This is quite a complex idea; one I don't find easy
> 
> to
> 
>>get across to academic staff who I am still encouraging not to arrange
> 
> 
>>sessions on study skills in the first week of term.
>>
>>Maggie Boyle
>>Head of Skills@Library
>>University of Leeds
>>LS2 9JT
>>T: 0113 343 5306
>>http://skills.library.leeds.ac.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: learning development in higher education network 
>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sandra Sinfield
>>Sent: 22 September 2008 16:34
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Writing style guide
>>
>>This is SO true! I am also part of the LearnHigher CETL - and my 
>>research areas are reading and notemaking. I try to explore these as 
>>emancipatory practice - emphasising that reading and notemaking when 
>>engaged in actively and interactively enable students to negotiate the
> 
> 
>>academic terrain for themselves. I stress that collecting referencing 
>>data is necessary for capturing your footprints through the 
>>knowledge-claims that already exist... Hopefully this way I place the 
>>emphasis the right way round.
>>
>>However, as a learning developer I am rarely asked to speak to
> 
> students 
> 
>>about making notes - but often asked to give sessions on referencing!
>>Best,
>>Sandra
>>
>>Helen Bowstead wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>>I too spend most of my time trying to unpick the mysteries of the 
>>>'Harvard' system and it's various interpretations. Oh, the irony of a
> 
> 
>>>'standardised' referencing system. However, what always strikes me is
> 
> 
>>>the obsession both tutors and students (and Learning Support staff)
>>>    
>>
>>have
>>  
>>
>>>with the form referencing 'conventions' take, and how little time and
> 
> 
>>>energy is spent on exploring the /function/ of referencing. In my 
>>>experience, although they know they have to reference, the majority
> 
> of
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>students haven't got a clue about the central role referencing
>>>    
>>
>>occupies
>>  
>>
>>>in academic culture. This fundamental gap means that for most,
>>>    
>>
>>whichever
>>  
>>
>>>referencing system they employ is regarded as a technical headache 
>>>rather than the means by which they can evidence their developing 
>>>knowledge base and allow others access to it. Who cares if a students
> 
> 
>>>uses p., pp. pg. or (as we do here at UCP Marjon) :, in their
>>>    
>>
>>citations
>>  
>>
>>>as long as a) there is some consistency and b) they understand how
> 
> and
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>why system works. Referencing lies at the heart of academic writing;
>>>    
>>
>>it
>>  
>>
>>>is not the icing on the cake, it is the cake itself.
>>>
>>>Helen
>>>
>>>Helen Bowstead
>>>Study Skills Coordinator
>>>University College Plymouth St. Mark and St. John Plymouth PL6 8BH 
>>>Tel. 01752 636700 Ext. 8218
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>*From:* learning development in higher education network 
>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Laurie Lumsden
>>>*Sent:* 18 September 2008 16:45
>>>*To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>*Subject:* Re: Writing style guide
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>I could not have put it better myself Peter. Thank you.  Laurie
>>>    
>>
>>Lumsden
>>  
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>>  
>>
>>>*From:* learning development in higher education network 
>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Peter M Wilson
>>>*Sent:* 17 September 2008 15:29
>>>*To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>*Subject:* Re: Writing style guide
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>Dear All
>>>
>>>To remount two old hobby horses, one rather newer than the other:
>>>
>>>1)  Is it worth repeating that Harvard University itself does not use
> 
> 
>>>the term "Harvard system"? - the Librarian at the Widener Library
>>>    
>>
>>there
>>  
>>
>>>(Joe Bourneuf) has issued a handout which he gives out in response to
> 
> 
>>>this FAQ, in which he says it is a "misnomer". It appears to be a
> 
> word
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>used more in the UK ands some countries of the British Commonwealth
>>>    
>>
>>than
>>  
>>
>>>it is in North America. For this reason I have always thought (and
>>>taught) that 'author-date' is a much better name for it - with the 
>>>advantage that the name begins ro show the student how to use it.  (I
> 
> 
>>>also feel that the inaccurate  'Harvard system' simply reflects yet
>>>    
>>
>>more
>>  
>>
>>>fossilised British snobbery, and should be rejected on that ground
>>>    
>>
>>alone
>>  
>>
>>>....  it should perhaps be recorded that one of my oldest friends
> 
> said
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>to me at a Reunion last year "Oh Peter, you always WERE an idealist" 
>>>with fine sneer in his voice.)
>>>
>>>2)   David says "We are all pretty hot at getting Harvard Referencing
> 
> 
>>>off to a 't'"; but WHICH 'Harvard sytem'?  There are many variants
>>>    
>>
>>even
>>  
>>
>>>in this one University, all called 'Harvard', and differing in petty 
>>>details - with which their originating departments insist on
> 
> rigourous
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>conformity.  Some, e.g., like the author's surname to be capitalised
>>>    
>>
>>in
>>  
>>
>>>the List of Refs, though most don't; advice on where to put
>>>    
>>
>>information
>>  
>>
>>>about the edition number is almost random, as is the precise way to 
>>>phrase references from the web (let alone what information is 
>>>'essential'); some insist that there should be a Bibliography, while 
>>>others say that a List of References is essential, and a
>>>    
>>
>>'Bibliography' 
>>  
>>
>>>(by which they mean something different from the former group) is
> 
> only
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>needed rarely, in postgraduate work; and practice in the text tags
>>>    
>>
>>(e.g. 
>>  
>>
>>>of marking page numbers - : p p. pg pg.) is variable.
>>>
>>>I rant about this often.  The only way to stop me, I fear, is to make
> 
> 
>>>the world a more rational place!  This will not happen.  David's main
> 
> 
>>>point is a good one - but not practicable.  The Teaching and Learning
> 
> 
>>>Commitee (high level) at Hull did once agree that the University
>>>    
>>
>>should
>>  
>>
>>>standardise on one system.  It was the supplementary question that 
>>>floored them: "Which?"  (The answer, apparently, was unanimous:
>>>    
>>
>>"Mine".)
>>  
>>
>>>The central cause seems to me in the end a good, if irritating, one: 
>>>that the different professions into which most of our students will
> 
> go
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>have their own traditional practices (Law a notable example), and we 
>>>have to prepare them for that professional life.  Within the academy,
> 
> 
>>>even, there are sound (if irrational) traditions which indicate
>>>    
>>
>>similar
>>  
>>
>>>choices: that the medical areas use an 'author-number' ('Vancouver') 
>>>system which seems to be fairly standard through the English-speaking
> 
> 
>>>world, History tends to like footnotes, some Social Sciences use the
>>>    
>>
>>APA
>>  
>>
>>>system and others 'Harvard' [see above...], and so on.
>>>
>>>See also
>>>
>>>    
>>
> http://slb-ltsu.hull.ac.uk/awe/index.php?title=Harvard_system_of_referen
> 
>>cing
>>  
>>
>>>and the links therefrom.
>>>
>>>Peter
>>>
>>>Peter Wilson
>>>Academic Writing and Study Skills adviser Study Advice Service 
>>>University of Hull
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: learning development in higher education network on behalf of 
>>>David Bowers
>>>Sent: Tue 16/09/2008 16:21
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Writing style guide
>>>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>Do any of you work in institutions that have an agreed "style guide"
>>>    
>>
>>or
>>  
>>
>>>similar for students' written work (essays, dissertations)?
>>>
>>>We are all pretty hot at getting Harvard Referencing off to a "t",
> 
> but
> 
>>>what about the rest? My Learning Development colleagues are often
>>>    
>>
>>asked
>>  
>>
>>>by eager students about things such as acceptability of American 
>>>spelling variants, using the first person, and so on, but also about 
>>>formatting issues such as double or 1.5 line spacing, paragraph 
>>>indenting, styles of subheadings, etc.
>>>
>>>Our response is, of course, that internal consistency is of the most 
>>>importance. However, we would be interested to know of any
> 
> experiences
> 
>>>of imposing a "house style".
>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>
>>>David
>>>David Bowers,
>>>Head of Learning Development,
>>>University Campus Suffolk,
>>>Rope Walk,
>>>Ipswich,
>>>IP4 1LT,
>>>United Kingdom.
>>>
>>>Tel: 01473 296339
>>>Fax: 01473 343696
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>University Campus Suffolk (UCS) is the trading name of University
>>>    
>>
>>Campus
>>  
>>
>>>Suffolk Ltd, a company registered in England & Wales, registered
>>>    
>>
>>number
>>  
>>
>>>5078498, registered office: St Edmund House, Rope Walk, Ipswich, IP4
>>>    
>>
>>1LZ
>>  
>>
>>>University Campus Suffolk is the UK's newest higher education 
>>>institution which officially opened on 1 August 2007. The main campus
>>>    
>>
>>is
>>  
>>
>>>located in Ipswich with university centres in Bury St Edmunds, Great 
>>>Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Otley. The new waterfront campus in Ipswich 
>>>opens in summer 2008.  Visit www.ucs.ac.uk for further details.
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>>  
>>
>>>University College Plymouth St Mark & St John Derriford Road Plymouth
> 
> 
>>>PL6 8BH
>>>
>>>Phone 01752 636700 Web marjon.ac.uk
>>>Principal: Professor David Baker / A Church of England College
> 
> Founded
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>in 1840 /
>>>
>>>/University College Plymouth St Mark & St John is a registered
> 
> charity
> 
>>>    
>>
>>  
>>
>>>the trustee of which is a company limited by guarantee registered in 
>>>England No. 986239 /
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>
>>  
> 
> 
> 
> University Campus Suffolk (UCS) is the trading name of University Campus
> Suffolk Ltd, a company registered in England & Wales, registered number
> 5078498, registered office: St Edmund House, Rope Walk, Ipswich, IP4 1LZ
>  
> University Campus Suffolk is the UK's newest higher education
> institution which officially opened on 1 August 2007. The main campus is
> located in Ipswich with university centres in Bury St Edmunds, Great
> Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Otley. The new waterfront campus in Ipswich
> opens in summer 2008.  Visit www.ucs.ac.uk for further details.
> 

-- 

Sandra Sinfield Coordinator Learning and Language Development
Learning Area Coordinator (reading & notemaking) Learn Higher CETL
www.learnhigher.ac.uk
_______________________________________________________________________

The Learning Development Unit (LDU), London Metropolitan University,
North Campus, Learning Centre 2-12, The Learning Centre, 236-250 
Holloway Road, N7 6PP.

Direct line: call Sandra Sinfield: (020) 7 133 4045
[log in to unmask]

For LDU City Campus, contact: [log in to unmask]
or call Pam Dorrington on: (020) 7 320 1125

http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/college-of-london/ldu/
_______________________________________________________________________

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