Stephen, I think 'Syringa' is one of the most beautiful poems anyone
living has written, I also rather like the more weighted contortions
of 'Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror'. I do feel that little JA has
become something of a parody of his own success: he publishes too
much, indiscriminitely. Now short though that it is, I wouldn't say it
quite amounts to a 'cranky dismissal', yes?
One road I really wouldn't want to take is Gertrude Stein on Hume,
that is the same Gertrude Stein who went on record as saying the
economic depression of the 30s didn't exist because she had problems
finding servants, oh no, no and no.
I will try to drill down a bit more on Ashbery and collage though.
Best
Dave
2008/8/29 Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]>:
> Ah, David. If you are really interested in the association between what a poet creates as an artist in another medium (collage} or whatever, and exploring whether the work bears any relationship to the use of language, I suggest drilling down a bit and finding other articles on Ashberry and collage. (Or for that matter, just the mere relationship of a medium - or even a discipline such as a philosophy, also pick up your country shovel!) Creeley & Miles Davis, Gertrude Stein and Hume, etc. Whether the association is interesting and the way it may be valuable to reading the work is up to you.
>
> Agreed, there are many poets who should keep their art works private - say, Ferlinghetti, for example.
>
> I like your cranky dismissal of Ashberry! It has a familiar tone to it! About too many years ago I could not deal with the work either. However, it might help to get a little smarter about your dismissals, I suggest, otherwise they do come off as glib and 'fatuous inanities''! And 'we' would not want to do that, would 'we'!
>
> Stephen V
> http://stephenvincent.net/blog
>
> David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote: stephen
>
> I've just had a google, like a good obedient consumer, and I can
> hardly conceal my dismay at the nullity at what I find. The main
> emphasis seems to be on what apartments mr JA in his prospects of
> flowers has moved in to.
>
> I think Ashbery has been a fine stylist, as a poet, he also writes too
> much, wears out the elan, and ultimately sanctions the capitalists.
>
> No way, sorry, but I'm not having that.
>
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> 2008/8/29 Stephen Vincent :
>> Check out, Google, David for sample Ashberry collages. There is actually a good piece on his domestic life (objects, art et al) in the current Rain Taxi:
>> http://www.raintaxi.com/ashbery/brown.shtml
>> His collages - the tension and discontinuity of images - mirror, and probably early on formed similar characteristics in his use of line (shifting of time frames, historical moments, let alone juxtapositions of kinds of images).
>>
>> I 'buy' Roger's argument, which is hardly novel - that art and music etc., etc., often often inform the making of the poem. The fact that many of us have a facility - sometimes with public success - with the visual or music should be no surprise. Some might even say that folks that can only make texts - and have no other facility(medium) (or interest in being educated in such) are forced to make the best out of a limited hand. Unfortunately, in this country(USA), unless things are changing, most MFA programs focus only on writing - making it a ghetto-like obsession. So much student work could be enriched by simultaneous immersions or partial immersions in other media. But those micro like obsessions are probably true through out academia.
>>
>> I say this - if I can thump my chest for a moment here - I will have a gallery show of my 'haptic' art works in Jan-Feb 2009, and my work has already been acquired by some significant collectors. I just started making 'haptics' in the last two years
>> (much can be seen on my blog). But my real point - in my case anyway - is that I don't see the art as distinct from the act of making my poems. I see marks in space (in duration, rhyhm and shape) as articulations that precede sylables. The visual work is all part of the mix that may also be at the foundation of poems, and/or the deconstruction of poems back to their roots. Morphing and demorphing!
>>
>> Speaking of which (morphing), Roger, as per my comment yesterday, I recommend that David Raeburn Penquin Classic translation of Ovid's Metapmorphoses.
>>
>> Stephen V
>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Bircumshaw wrote: >John Ashberry and Joe Brainard produce excellent poetry, and it seems they produced
>> excellent collages.<
>>
>> well it seems there is a rather a problem discussing JA's collages as
>> they can't be seen.
>>
>> You are quite right to say that my view of poetry is provisional, but
>> 'weak', no, it's nothing of the sort. Poetry, within its own sphere,
>> is immensely potent, but it is easily brushed aside by more tangible
>> objects outside that sphere.
>>
>> I haven't said anything about your art-work btw because I haven't
>> anything useful to say about it, that's not a criticism just a
>> statement of fact.
>>
>> 2008/8/29 Roger Day :
>>> Your vision is that Poetry is weak and provisional. Poetry is nothing
>>> of the sort. It has persisted for a millenia or two, and I'm pretty
>>> sure it will persist a damn sight longer. In fact, poetry and painting
>>> have persisted side by side for a long time. Painting (in the modern
>>> sense), if I read Julian Bell correctly, grew from illustration.
>>> Indeed, there are a few poems which use paintings as their source of
>>> inspiration. So the two inform, enrich each other. John Ashberry and
>>> Joe Brainard produce excellent poetry, and it seems they produced
>>> excellent collages. The Mole has just produced an excellent book of
>>> illustrations. Why we can't discuss both is beyond me. It seems they
>>> intersect, burgeon and go forth.
>>>
>>> The history of poetryetc stands against you:
>>>
>>> Discussions about art history? Yep.
>>> Discussions about music? Yep.
>>> Discussions about Theatre? Yep.
>>> Discussions about Maths? Yep.
>>>
>>> Have these displaced the poetry? No. Will painting displace poetry on
>>> this list? No. There are a lot of poets on this list, and poetry is
>>> their main interest, but there are a lot subsidiary interests and I
>>> don't see why they shouldn't be aired. And that's the etc bit. Get
>>> inspiration from, for example. Indeed, of the current threads, I can
>>> see no support for your assertions. Currently there are several
>>> parallel threads, some discussing poetry, some discussing the more
>>> plastic arts. Some discussing brickwork. Yes, I notice that you were
>>> all too eager to discuss brickwork, in this thread, and another on
>>> poetry. Danged if I can see what that has to do with poetry, but I'm
>>> happy to read it, follow the witty and intelligent conservation dive
>>> and thread where it will, gleaning bits of inspiration and information
>>> here and there; watch it reel back in to poetry and out again; marvel
>>> and delight at the witticisms, jokes, nuggets of pure gold. I think we
>>> have a wonderful, unique thing here in poetryetc. If you wish to
>>> tamper with it, so be it. I won't be there for the ride if the list is
>>> closed down to a narrow, tight, airless little box. I had enough of
>>> that on British & Irish Poets, Buffalo Poetics etc with people
>>> shouting that you can't discuss this or that.
>>>
>>> Dave, if you don't feel comfortable discussing my art, then please,
>>> don't. Start up your own thread about what interests you. Post some
>>> poetry, and we'll discuss it. You have many wonderful thoughts and
>>> ideas; this isn't one of your better ones.
>>>
>>> I am learning to swim and frolic in the waters of three worlds: text,
>>> image and music. At one stage I had spurned poetry altogether and you
>>> encouraged me to write poetry again. Now I know I can't do without
>>> poetry, that it informs me as much as I breath, but I can't deny my
>>> other talents, and the currents that flow between them.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 7:21 AM, David Bircumshaw
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm trying very hard to articulate something that resembles a thought
>>>> here: poetry, pace Darwish, doesn't change life, but it adds an extra
>>>> dimension. However that space it creates doesn't alter that which is
>>>> not that space, so something different, something extra, gets added,
>>>> but the old problems still stay the same. At the same time, it is a
>>>> provisional, vulnerable, largely intangible thing, and it is very easy
>>>> to fall for the temptation of a more physical substitute to inhabit
>>>> the same space.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if I'm making myself clear or making sense, this is just
>>>> an attempt at speaking, I'll leave it at this for now.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> 2008/8/28 Roger Day :
>>>>> Pace our moderators attempts to limit the discussion to poetry and
>>>>> only poetry, the title of the list has always been "poetryetc". See
>>>>> that little etc at the end there? So, although poetry may not be
>>>>> discussed in a way you like, I wasn't under the impression that poetry
>>>>> was avoided. From my POV, most of the conversation centers around
>>>>> poetry, looping, elliptical maybe, but still going around and around.
>>>>> Maybe it's my vision of the list that differs from yours. There are
>>>>> plenty of lists which concentrate *solely* on Poetry - new-poetry,
>>>>> british and irish poets etc etc. The uniqueness of this list is that
>>>>> it could cover everything, and does sometimes, but the center holding
>>>>> is poetry. I've not seen many people posting snaps recently and that's
>>>>> always been a major feature of these lists. Indeed, you've contributed
>>>>> poetry and it's been discussed, so I hardly see how that's avoiding
>>>>> poetry.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's nothing to stop you from discussing villanelles if that's what
>>>>> you want. And I was under the impression that was what you were doing
>>>>> so with Alison. For me, the world, for me, does not spin on a poetic
>>>>> axis alone, and the broad wash of genres should mix and collide. No
>>>>> boundaries. I realise I'm probably the main culprit here, so hey, if
>>>>> you want me kicked off, complain to the moderators. I'm sure they'd be
>>>>> happy to oblige, pace their attempts to fit this list into a neat
>>>>> little box.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:53 PM, David Bircumshaw
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> It's fascinating to be on a poetry discussion list where the main
>>>>>> thing that is avoided in conversation is poetry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2008/8/27 Stephen Vincent :
>>>>>>> Agree with Doug, here, Roger. I like the sense of texture in these pieces.
>>>>>>> The work does not seem much about 'self' in that narcisstic way, so I don't reason to be concerned about put your stuff out into the world. I see these things as kinds of gifts - not that you want them to be free of critique (another kind of reciprocal gift, if well given).
>>>>>>> I mean you are not confusing your 'self' with Paris Hilton - I suspect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen V
>>>>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Douglas Barbour wrote: And definitely something there to promote, Roger. I especially like
>>>>>>> the abstracts & the merz stuff....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doug
>>>>>>> On 26-Aug-08, at 1:33 PM, Roger Day wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/rog3r.day/Portfolio2008
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
>>>>>>>> "I began to warm and chill
>>>>>>>> to objects and their fields"
>>>>>>>> Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Douglas Barbour
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Latest books:
>>>>>>> Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
>>>>>>> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
>>>>>>> Wednesdays'
>>>>>>> http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A little planet blues, for the
>>>>>>> deathwatch.
>>>>>>> A season of rictus riffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dennis Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Bircumshaw
>>>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>>>>>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
>>>>> "I began to warm and chill
>>>>> to objects and their fields"
>>>>> Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Bircumshaw
>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>>>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
>>> "I began to warm and chill
>>> to objects and their fields"
>>> Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Bircumshaw
>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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