medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thank you John (and George) I did ask the question before reading the
links, so will know better next time. I was struck by the depiction of joy
at the birth of a daughter (cf Isaac and J the B) and, I suppose, at how
early devotion to Mary might provoke such story telling. It also resonated
with a recent (Channel 4 I think) TV programme on the Jesus of the Koran.
Perhaps (and I hope this is not offensive) _Protevangelium Jacobi_ was a
source of some Muslim tradition?
Best
Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dillon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Joachim and Anne
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Hi, Rosemary. Your question is not dumb. And calling Joachim and Anne
> fictional _is_ a matter of judgment.
>
> In the posting to which you refer ("saints of the day 26. July"), I said:
>> 1) Joachim and Anne (d. 1st cent.). J. and A., the fictional parents
>> of Mary the mother of Jesus, are first attested in the later
>> second-century infancy gospel generally known as the _Protevangelium
>> Jacobi_. One may read about them in English-language translation here:
>> http://www.gospels.net/translations/infancyjamestranslation.html
>
> If you've read the translation to which I pointed you will already know
> that the _Protevangelium Jacobi_ does not acknowledge itself as "simply a
> collection of made up stories". Since fictions often do not acknowledge
> themselves in this fashion, the absence of such an acknowledgment (passing
> over the word "simply", with which both the author and many readers would
> probably take issue) is not probative as to the fictional nature of the
> figures in question.
>
> The widely held view that the biblically unnamed J. and A. of this text
> are wholly fictional characters proceeds from the standard scholarly
> assessment of the derivative nature of the work as a whole as well as from
> aspects of it that make it unlikely that its author was familiar either
> with Palestine or with Jewish custom. There are a number of surveys that
> may be consulted on this point; for convenience, see the discussion here
> by Wilhelm Schneemelcher and R. M. Wilson in their _New Testament
> Apocrypha: Gospels And Related Writings_ (Westminster: John Knox Press,
> 2003), esp. at pp. 423ff.:
> http://tinyurl.com/66a6s2
> The _Protevangelium Jacobi_ purports to be a work of the early
> first-century Christian community in Palestine. The few discussions I
> have read that attempt to show that this could actually be true have
> failed to convince.
>
> Best,
> John Dillon
>
>
> On Monday, August 4, 2008, at 7:14 am, Rosemary Hayes wrote:
>
>
>> I don't want to set off another argument by entering late into this
>> fray but wondered whether I might ask John Dillon a question the
>> dumbness of which may point to my brain having been addled by the heat
>> of Corsica (44 there and 14 here in Edinburgh).
>>
>> Why is it that in your original post you described Joachim and Anne as
>> 'fictional' rather than 'traditional'? A second-century source seems
>> (from my perspective of working on the fifteenth century) rather
>> early. So does the source somehow acknowledge that it is simply a
>> collection of made up stories or has the received wisdom of the
>> subsequent 18 centuries of scholarship judged unanimously on the
>> matter? And I really am interested in the answer not trying to
>> question your judgement John!
>>
>> I did take some photos of 12th-century Pisan churches in Corsica but
>> they are not terribly good. I will send them to MG and leave it to
>> her judgement.
>>
>> best wishes to all
>> Rosemary
>>
>> Dr RCE Hayes
>> Honorary Treasurer
>> Canterbury and York Society
>> 18 Murrayfield Drive
>> Edinburgh
>> EH12 6EB
>>
>> 0131 337 1385
>> [log in to unmask]
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|