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LIS-PUB-LIBS  August 2008

LIS-PUB-LIBS August 2008

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Subject:

Re: Fines etc

From:

"Usher, John" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Usher, John

Date:

Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:55:21 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (207 lines)

No, perfectly serious.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frances Hendrix [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frances
Hendrix
Sent: 08 August 2008 16:28
To: Usher, John; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fines etc


sorry but this sounds like superficial pompous and quite ludicrous bumf. As 
McEnroe would say, 'you cant be serious'!!

but it is a Friday afternoon in August
f
Frances Hendrix
Martin House Farm, Hilltop Lane, Whittle le Woods, Chorley, Lancs PR6 7QR, 
UK
tel: 01257 274 833.  fax: 01257 266 488
email: [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Usher, John" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Fines etc


Aside from the financial returns and 'discipline' (or incentive) concerns, 
there is another way to look at fines.

From a technical perspective (i.e. related to the way LMS's can handle 
things), it is possible to think of 'fines' as a:

'Repeat Hire Charge' for items for which there was no original hire charge - 
i.e. books!

Think about, say, a DVD, for which we might charge £1 a day - if the user 
keeps it overdue, we (try) to charge them another pound a day, normally upto 
a fixed limit (probably not a limit related to the direct value of the item, 
but arbitrarily set).

We are not allowed to charge for books in the first place (and I don't 
advocate that we do!), so we don't have repeat hire charges for them, so we 
call them 'fines' - fines are simply a special case of repeat hire charges. 
Effectively, IMHO, we call a spade a 'manually operated digging implement', 
because we can't call it a spade.

And if the maximum charge is at, or greater than, the cover price of the 
item (not what we paid for it, nor have spent on processing or handling it), 
the user's mindset may be

If I pay the fine, then I should own it, or I'll only pay a proportion of 
it's

and yes, I have had that said to me.

So if the item is really critical to us (e.g. rare, expensive), what 
effective recovery methods do we have in place for those, and what do we 
want to do about the rest?

What is it we really want to achieve?

JU


John Usher
ICT Development Manager
Islington Library & Cultural Services
Islington Council
Central Library
2 Fieldway Crescent
LONDON N5 1PF

Tel: 020 7527 6920
Mobile: 07825 098 223
Fax: 020 7527 6926
Alternative contact: Michelle Gannon - 020 7527 6907

www.islington.gov.uk


> How to get to Central Library: 
> http://www.islington.gov.uk/Education/Libraries/Local/Central.asp
>



-----Original Message-----
From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frances Hendrix
Sent: 08 August 2008 14:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LIS-PUB-LIBS] Fines etc


My other experience of fines, is of course in the court environment, where
fines area punishment.

Is this really the ethos we want for public libraries?

we have to trust people, and I bet on the whole most books come back (I take
the point made by several that if the book is required by another borrower
it should come back on time), and nay one who wants to steal a book will
find a way.

I still wonder (again several people have mentioned), what are the real
costs and benefits?

more fiddling with the minutia while the world is passing us by?

Is this what the MLA want to see for public libraries in their Vision and
Action Plan? Maybe Andrew Motion could compose a suitable poem about this
state of affairs.
f
Frances Hendrix
Martin House Farm, Hilltop Lane, Whittle le Woods, Chorley, Lancs PR6 7QR,
UK
tel: 01257 274 833.  fax: 01257 266 488
email: [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Miller" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:49 PM
Subject: Fines etc


> Interesting discussion, as most correspondents seem to take the view that
> fines are a Bad Thing. The two strands seem to be that fines per se are a
> deterrent and should be eliminated, but as Mike Maguire noted, fines are
> firmly embedded in the budgetary process and I bet 'quality of service'
> figures in very few budgetary discussions. There is, perhaps, a third
> strand that should be considered. Libraries can be regarded as a form of
> commons, and the commons only work properly within a framwork of accepted
> behaviour. The accepted behaviour surrounding the loan of library material
> is - ah -nebulous. Fines are one form of creating a framework of accepted
> behavior - we are the guardians of these commons! Or, to put it another
> way, in an age when social mores seem to get ever laxer, it could be
> argued
> that there is growing need to enforce and re-inforce the notion of social
> responsibility. One way of doing that is to have rules, make them known,
> and enforce them. On this basis, I think there is a case for fines - not
> necessarily the strongest one, but a case.
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Fred Miller
> Senior Librarian (ICT)
> North Tyneside Libraries
> Central Library
> Northumberland Square
> North Shields
> NE30 1QU
>
> Tel : 0191-200 5425 or 0191-200 6294
> Fax : 0191-200 6088
> E-mail : [log in to unmask]
>
> Unless otherwise stated, opinions, conclusions and other information
> expressed in this message are personal, and not those of North Tyneside
> Council.
>
>
>
> Unless otherwise stated, opinions, conclusions and other information
> expressed in this message are personal, and not those of North Tyneside
> Council. This email has been scanned for viruses and inappropriate content
> by Clearswift MIMEsweeper service. North Tyneside Council does not
> guarantee this email to be free of any viruses. It is the responsibility
> of the recipient to ensure that this message and any attachments are virus
> free.
>
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If you wish to re-use the information, perhaps for commercial purposes, in a way which, without permission, might breach our copyright, please first read our policy on Re-use of Public Sector Information which can be found on our website http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/CouncilStructure/Access_to_Information/FreedomofInformation/ReUsingInformation/  or alternatively e-mail [log in to unmask]
 
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