JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for COMP-FORTRAN-90 Archives


COMP-FORTRAN-90 Archives

COMP-FORTRAN-90 Archives


COMP-FORTRAN-90@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

COMP-FORTRAN-90 Home

COMP-FORTRAN-90 Home

COMP-FORTRAN-90  August 2008

COMP-FORTRAN-90 August 2008

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: j3 responses to public comments

From:

Van Snyder <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Fortran 90 List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:10:59 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

Both David and Lawrie missed my main point.  David responded to the
"they ought not to be optional" part and Lawrie's response addressed the
state of computer hardware as of at least three years ago.

To repeat (paraphrasing and embellishing slightly):

        The view of the US delegation to the ISO working group is that
        coarse-grain parallelism will become SO IMPORTANT SO SOON
        (apologies for shouting) that CoArrays should not be delayed,
        and should not be optional.

First to tackle the "should not be delayed" part:

Dual-core and quad-core processors both appeared after the 2003 standard
was published, and are already the only option for "commodity"
scientific computing.  The possibility that they might appear was not
even mentioned during development of Fortran 2003.  It was tacitly
agreed that HPF and OpenMP were dead letters by then, but nothing was
done to replace them, or to integrate them into the standard in hopes of
reviving their relevance.

We can expect processors with many more cores, and "affordable" systems
with enormous numbers of multicore processors, long before 2013, when
next a parallelism feature could be added to Fortran, or 2018, by which
time parallelism features added in 2013 would be widely available.  One
can already purchase coprocessors with thousands of ALUs, at reasonable
prices.  Although having only ALUs is overly simple at this time, that
will change rapidly.  Without language-supported parallelism, Fortran
will be largely irrelevant to scientific programming on what will be
"modern" and "widely used" commodity processors in 2018.

Keith has pointed out my mistake in suggesting that Moore's law is dead:
The problem is Amdahl's law.  You should expect this to be addressed by
"processor-in-memory" chips sooner rather than later.  The prospect of
programming meaningful systems of these efficiently (in both human and
silicon cycles) using PVM or MPI frightens me, and the people who pay
me.  People will want to program them.  Our ambitions keep expanding.
My current work processes data from a satellite instrument using a
cluster of 362 single-core Pentiums and a brain-dead parallelization
strategy.  Our next instrument (2016 or so) will return 400 times as
much data.  If Fortran won't be ready for this until after 2018, we'll
be stuck with something else, probably something less suitable.

Fine-grain parallelism was added to Fortran in 1990 in the form of array
operations, and embellished a little bit in 1995.  Nothing new was done
for parallelism, on any scale, in 2003.  A baby step toward
medium-grained parallelism is to be added in 2008, in the form of the
CONCURRENT construct.

The only serious alternative to CoArrays for coarse-grain parallelism is
PVM or MPI.  CoArrays are very much superior to PVM and MPI.  Arguing
that CoArrays shouldn't be implemented now because a better idea might
come along someday allows the perfect to be the enemy of the good.  If
you have a well-formed and tested idea that is "better" than CoArrays
(whatever you think "better" means), for its target scale, now is the
time to speak up.

To address optionality, CoArrays are defined to be almost optional, in
that processors need not support more than one image.  This means that
they have to parse some trivial new syntax, implement NUM_IMAGES to
return 1, THIS_IMAGE to return 1, and perhaps a few other trivialities.
There should be no impact on the code generator or optimizer.  This is
very much the same situation as for asynchronous I/O (which isn't
described in an optional part).

For processors that choose to support more than one image, it is
necessary to tackle all the interaction of CoArrays with the "core"
language (just as it is necessary for processors that support
asynchronous I/O), and it is essential for the details of that
interaction to be standardized.  If you study the standard, you will
find that this is pervasive (more so than for asynchronous I/O).  It
would be exceedingly difficult to develop an optional part that explains
this articulation in an understandable (and believably correct) way.
Consider how Alan Wilson could have added array syntax to Fortran in
1990 as an optional part or a TR, and you'll see the problem.

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 16:32 +0100, Lawrie Schonfelder wrote:
> I entirely agree with David. Co-arrays may be important for some users on some architectures but by
> no means all of either. They are too "flavour of the month" and as yet unproven as even a better way
> of doing explicit parallelism let alone best on the architectures that do suit them. They must be
> optional.
> 
> --
> Lawrie Schonfelder
> Wirral, UK
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fortran 90 List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
> > Of David Muxworthy
> > Sent: 24 August 2008 16:52
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: j3 responses to public comments
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:31:50 -0700, Van Snyder <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > The view of the US delegation to the ISO
> > >working group is that parallelism will become so important so soon that
> > >CoArrays should not be delayed, and should not be optional (optional
> > >stuff has never been successful in Fortran).
> >
> > The two optional parts of the current standard are unsuccessful not because
> > they are optional, but because there is no demand for them.
...
>   There are a
> > number of reasons why they should be an option.  A primary one is that, when
> > it is realised that the coarray model is not the best one to pursue, the
> > Fortran base language will not be lumbered with lots of redundant syntax and
> > complexity.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

December 2023
February 2023
November 2022
September 2022
February 2022
January 2022
June 2021
November 2020
September 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
December 2019
October 2019
September 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
June 2015
April 2015
March 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
August 2014
July 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
October 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998
1997


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager