Dear Joe and Chris,

It would eb a great mistake to believe that governments will necessarily be benevolent in dealing with climate change if a nationals ecurity perspective is introduced. The key dimension of such "war foorings" si that they are anti-democratic" and as we saw in the National Security sates in altin America - an easy cover for witch humts and amss human rights violations - not to mention the alternative and anti-human agendas of many key arms manufacturers.

If dealing with Climate change requires a more thoughtful form of consumer behaviour then so be it. Much of the technical change to begin is already within our grasp  - if national governments were to introduce a Domeday equivalent of auditing the best carbon reducing practices for each industry - we could already go a long step of the way to make significant carbon reductions - but it will need tremendous analytical energy, wisdom and commitment.....

Re directing military budgets like Trident would be rationale but then the nuclear weapon deploymentd ebate has never been rationale - successive governments are now justifying the decisions to repalce it on the absis of as yet unforseen future threats. Tryng to estimate the statistics of deadly effects of climate change is fraught since we do not know how much of a discontinuity we are facing and how sudden its onset might be. People are now dying in the South in places like Africa and Bangladesh but one estimate suggests a billion refugees will be on the move either creating internal displacement or attempting to cross international borders. We can antivcipate staes in Europe deploying increasingly coercive measures to prevent those flows given how altruistic most populations have now been persuaded to feel about all asylum seekers iN Europe..

My own research si looking at the area denial technologies now being developed by many Nortehrn states and my outlook was quite frankly bleak. I had toyed with the idea that all regions should now begin to think of sanctuary areas where the could channel mass displacemenst but without much optimism. Then alst week I attended an IPRA conference where a young researcher from india presented an analysis of how India has dealt with an influx of 20million people from bangkladesh without papers... The outcome seems to be quite constructive since the Indian authorities have desgigned areas to take these numbers where they can temporarily farm, and not be in conflict with lovcal people. Twenty million is about the combined populations of Seaden, Denmark, Norway and more....So if it has happened it is possible. Perhaps we should look to the South on how they are dealing with such issues now in a relatively enlightened way?

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion list for the Crisis Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CHRIS KEENE
Sent: 20 July 2008 19:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: We Speak for Gaia, Deal with It


Thanks Joe, what I meant was that unless voters are in favour of 
something, the politicians won't do it.  But that might be wrong- after 
all most people support capital punishment, but politicians have been 
principled enough to avoid it.

I was at a seminar on the political acceptability of personal carbon 
trading last week, and Matthew Lockwood of the Institute for Public 
Policy Research said that politicians can take a lead, but not in the 
face of 80-90% public opposition.  So, I guess you have to appeal to 
people's inner goodness, simply to get a sufficient number to back the 
politicians when they make difficult choices

Chris

Joseph Hayman wrote:

> Chris
>  
> I've seen one website estimating 48m deaths in World War 2 but I've no
> idea how accurate that is.  I'd imagine if the temperature keeps on 
> rising it won't take climate change too long to beat that figure.
>  
> I completely agree about the war mentality - I've been campaigning for
> the last few months to get the Prime Minister to make a televised 
> address to the nation about climate change, putting us on a war 
> footing.  Sorry for the shameless plug but I think if you want the 
> kind of societal-level change you're talking about, you have to have 
> co-ordination from the Government: while it was way before my time, I 
> can't believe rationing in World War II was achieved by appealing to 
> people's inner goodness alone - the state needs to lead change in 
> people's behaviour because its the only body with any kind of 
> democratic mandate to compel people to change their behaviour in 
> pursuit of a wider national interest.  
>  
> For anyone interested in the campaign, the website is
> www.letstalkgordon.org.uk <http://www.letstalkgordon.org.uk>
>  
> Joe Hayman
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:13:10 +0100
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: We Speak for Gaia, Deal with It
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > The problem is, who will put into effect the economic and regulatory 
> > signals, unless they are backed by the public? So I think there is 
> > no substitute for appealing to people's inner goodness. Most people 
> > haven't responded up until now because they do not perceive the 
> > seriousness of the situation. It's time the environmental movement 
> > started telling people the full facts about climate change, and 
> > telling people we need a war time regime. And of course that regime 
> > doesn't only include sacrifice, it also helped society become much 
> > more cohesive, and better fed. But we need carbon rationing in the 
> > same way we had food rationing, as well as the economy being 
> > switched to renewable energy etc, and away from fossil fuels. All 
> > perfectly possible when you see what was achieved in wartime
> >
> > "Fight climate change, not oil wars" might be a good slogan to get 
> > people into the wartime spirit. Using the £76billion for the renewal 
> > of Trident on doing things like building wind turbines and 
> > insulating
> homes
> > would be good, and would also provide many more jobs.
> >
> > Does anyone have the figures on how many were killed in the second
> world
> > war, and how many are likely to die from climate change?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Oliver Tickell wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >This essay is a good example of what we were talking about ...
> calling for
> > >an "Earth revolution" to save the planet.
> > >
> > >Of course I am all for it (up to a point), but I'm afraid that the
> great
> > >mass of humanity is not. So pending that Earth Revolution what are
> we to do?
> > >It is my contention that people will respond to economic and 
> > >regulatory signals, because they have to; and that this is a much 
> > >more
> immediate means
> > >of effecting change than appealing to people's inner goodness. We
> have been
> > >doing the latter for some time now, and while some people respond, 
> > >most don't! We cannot rely on humanity's inner goodness to save the 
> > >planet.
> > >
> > >Oliver Tickell.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Dr. Glen Barry -- Earth Meanders
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > >Sent: 11 July 2008 03:10
> > >Subject: EARTH MEANDERS: We Speak for Gaia, Deal with It
> > >
> > >EARTH MEANDERS
> > >We Speak for Gaia, Deal with It
> > >
> > >Earth revolutionaries speaking ecological truth -- the Earth is
> dying and
> > >there is just time to save her and us -- and that are willing to
> take action
> > >to ensure those destroying being are stopped, are our best hope for
> survival
> > >
> > >Personal essay by Dr. Glen Barry, [log in to unmask] 
> > >http://earthmeanders.blogspot.com/
> > >July 10, 2008
> > >
> > >There are very few selflessly telling truth these days. Let me.
> Gaia, the
> > >Earth system and provider of humanity's habitat, is imploding and
> ecosystem
> > >loss and an inoperable atmosphere mean we are moving towards a 
> > >horrific death for most if not all life. Yet, perhaps in the nick 
> > >of time,
> there is a
> > >new breed of environmentalists imbued with a revolutionary spirit
> of action,
> > >speaking ecological truth, and willing and able to take sufficient
> action on
> > >behalf of Mother Earth. I speak not of revolutionary violence at
> the moment,
> > >but profound societal and personal transformation adequate to
> sustain being
> > >and ourselves.
> > >
> > >The way many in the over-developed world live, and to which most of
> the rest
> > >aspire, is based upon numerous fundamental lies. Democratic 
> > >consumption cannot provide all everyone wants forever (or even much 
> > >longer).
> Industrial
> > >capitalism bent upon endless growth will allow itself to be 
> > >reformed to
> > >steady- state sustainability or it will be destroyed -- by 
> revolution or its
> > >own collapse on a lifeless planet. Working people have become
> slaves for the
> > >elites, and if things continue, will soon be crushed by ecosystem
> collapse
> > >while the rich continue to live well for a while longer.
> > >
> > >Those that speak and act upon ecological truths are the antidote to
> global
> > >ecocide waged by fat cat financial speculators, industrialists and
> oil men.
> > >We are special. Our scope of life and love is larger. We are global 
> > >citizens, and our family includes all species, and the Earth 
> > >herself. Without the Earth there is nothing. Too numerous humans 
> > >ravaging
> ecosystems
> > >like locusts are destroying all that is sacred -- water, air, land 
> > >and oceans -- the requirements for all life. We know, care and 
> > >feel,
> and are
> > >better people, the model for future humankind.
> > >
> > >Ecological revolutionaries are smart and speak scientific and other
> truths.
> > >Those that do not believe in climate change or feel the Earth's
> pain are
> > >stupid and dull. We reject mainstream environmentalism -- where 
> > >what is asked for is insufficient even if fully achieved -- for a 
> > >revolutionary spirit of ever increasing pressure upon criminal 
> > >Earth destroyers.
> First we
> > >ask, then we protest, then we obstruct and perhaps sabotage, and if
> and when
> > >every offer to embrace sustainability by the elite has been
> rejected, we
> > >must be willing to fight.
> > >
> > >I Am Special, You Can Be Special Too
> > >
> > >It is ok to be special. I am special by virtue of my embrace of
> Gaia and all
> > >her species and people as kin; and unique skills I have to see
> ecological
> > >wrongs, envision sustainability, and possess the smarts, dedication 
> > >and skills to continuously organize awareness and solutions. There 
> > >are
> thousands
> > >like me and together we are going to save the Earth.
> > >If we are to weather the times that are coming we had better
> overcome the
> > >tyranny of mediocrity and start recognizing genius and truth.
> > >
> > >Herein I have often been frank with my human frailties. How myopic
> to think
> > >it is ego to now discuss what makes me and others like me special.
> Why are
> > >game athletes, play actors and screaming singers revered and viewed
> as being
> > >special and not political ecologists defending the Earth and all
> life? Being
> > >able to conceive and implement specific actions to promote 
> > >ecological sustainability, allowing being to continue and averting 
> > >disaster, is at least as cool as kicking a goal, pretending a part, 
> > >or rocking out (and these are all way cool).
> > >
> > >Perhaps my unique gift is to see and communicate the scale of the
> ecological
> > >problems facing the Earth, and absurd inadequacy of nearly every
> response.
> > >Too many people consuming recklessly with nary a thought to
> conservation and
> > >the future are eating ecosystems required to keep the Earth 
> > >habitable. This and a dedication to sufficient solutions set this 
> > >ecologist apart.
> > >
> > >This gift is wielded at a price. To feel viscerally my oneness with 
> > >the Earth, to know this is profound truth, yet to often be unable 
> > >to
> personally
> > >communicate it without repelling others. So I write and organize 
> > >information, and live a lonely life. It is damn hard to often be
> the only
> > >sane, fully ecologically aware one in the room (the Earth is dying,
> arghh!),
> > >even as I am condemned by the ignorant as strange and a bit scary.
> I have
> > >been shocked by withdrawals of love by family and friends because I 
> > >am different. I refuse to change to get along.
> > >
> > >How easy it is to confuse vision, passion, commitment and sacrifice 
> > >for egoism. How saddened I am by the selfishness of modern hairless 
> > >apes, dismayed at our detachment from ecosystems, and scared by the 
> > >full apocalyptic implications of our ignorance. This is not 
> > >messianic, it is prophetic, and we need more of the latter and much 
> > >less of the
> former, as
> > >the only God is Gaia.
> > >
> > >I am sick and tired of people saying there is nothing I and others
> can do
> > >for the Earth, that we cannot make a difference.
> > >It is as if society went straight from denying the problems to 
> > >being unwilling to embrace transformative solutions because they 
> > >require
> sacrifice
> > >and an end to wallowing competitive consumption. Yes we can
> re-learn how to
> > >live with the Earth, there is still just time to thrive and 
> > >survive.
> > >
> > >Ecological truth-tellers infused with a revolutionary spirit of
> action to
> > >save the Earth are the most special people around. We are the
> future hope
> > >for humanity and all being. We are going to stop coal, ancient 
> > >forest logging, and implement numerous other transformative changes
> necessary to
> > >save the Earth and all her creatures.
> > >
> > >After some time for rest and reflection, and having regained my
> health and
> > >semblance of peace of mind, I look forward to using all of my power 
> > >of intellect and persuasion to advocate for a spirit of 
> > >revolutionary
> action in
> > >response to the abysmal crises faced by the Earth and her humanity.
> I see no
> > >choice.
> > >
> > >Time for a Earth Revolution to Save Being
> > >
> > >Thoughtful, widespread consideration, enunciation and organization 
> > >of a revolutionary strategy for global ecological social change are 
> > >long
> overdue.
> > >The revolutionary spirit of which I speak must aspire to completely
> smash
> > >the growth machine devouring ecosystems we need to live, in order
> to usher
> > >in an era of global ecological restoration and sustainability.
> Nothing less
> > >will suffice. The only option remaining for survival of humans and
> Gaia is
> > >clearly to embrace profound, radical transformations in the way we
> live.
> > >
> > >Revolutionary change means reducing our homes, driving, meat eating 
> > >and other consumption; and re-localizing our economies and 
> > >governance,
> returning
> > >to the Earth to grow organic gardens, and just generally living
> more simply
> > >yet fully.
> > >Nothing less will allow billions -- or those that survive the 
> > >coming ecologically-mediated social collapse -- to live equitably,
> peacefully and
> > >sustainably for much longer.
> > >
> > >Yet revolutionary change need not necessarily be violent. Within 
> > >the Earth Revolution option there are many tactical choices
> of which
> > >revolutionary violence is but one last possibility, and is
> hopefully not
> > >needed, because peaceful persuasion is often effective. There are
> many ways
> > >for revolutionary "people power" to resist including mass protest, 
> > >petitions, sabotage, sit-ins, strikes and boycotts. Various
> participants
> > >within an Earth Revolution will feel comfortable with, and embrace
> different
> > >tactics, and you are urged to select active means of resistance of 
> > >your choice soon, taking full responsibility for doing so.
> > >
> > >Given unprecedented threats to human well-being, the threat of
> revolutionary
> > >action cannot be taken off the table. If the ruling elite are so 
> > >intransigent that they will not stop their violence against the 
> > >Earth, workers and sister species, then they will have to be 
> > >eliminated. Revolutionary war like all killing is always murder. 
> > >Yet either
> that or we
> > >all die a miserable and terrifying death, leaving a ravaged Planet 
> > >to regenerate or perhaps just slip away into nothingness.
> > >
> > >I look forward to contemplating and discussing Earth Revolution
> strategies
> > >and tactics further, and have not and will not now condone any 
> > >imminent illegal acts. Yet I remain committed to academically 
> > >investigating
> how a
> > >revolutionary spirit, and commitment to sufficient ecological and
> social
> > >change to sustain the Earth, will come about one way or another.
> > >
> > >Indeed, I have a long list of planned essays and am writing a book
> on the
> > >topic. Your financial support to Earth Meanders, to help fund 
> > >radical ecological free thinking, will help make this writing 
> > >possible. You can donate to support these personal essays at 
> > >http://earthmeanders.blogspot.com/ on the right hand menu bar.
> Thank you for
> > >caring for Gaia.
> > >
> > >********************
> > >Dr. Barry is founder and President of Ecological Internet; provider
> of the
> > >largest, most used environmental portals on the Internet including 
> > >the Climate Ark at http://www.climateark.org/ and
> http://www.EcoEarth.Info/ .
> > >Earth Meanders is a series of ecological essays that are written
> entirely in
> > >his personal capacity. This essay may be reprinted granted it is
> properly
> > >credited to Dr. Barry and with a link to Earth Meanders. Emailed
> responses
> > >are public record and will be posted on the web site unless 
> > >otherwise requested.
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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