medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I do not doubt the Greek means that, but the doctrine of the Immaculate
Conception evolved in a Western Augustinian milieu in which the Greek
was not what most theologians were reading. Improved knowledge of the
Greek originals brought the status of the Vulgate text into the realm of
debate in the West.
Tom Izbicki
Diana Wright wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> The quality of gifts is not strained in the Greek. Gifts could be
> anything. The word moves toward blessings, gratitude, etc.
>
> DW
>
>
> Thomas Izbicki wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Medieval western ideas of grace probably differ widely from earlier,
>> especially Greek ones. Most of the 15th and 16th century theologians
>> I read for the article were not experts on Greek. Their notion of
>> grace reads, in the Vulgate Latin, as something other than "gifts".
>> Almost as a quantity. I had thought to find "plena gratia" used to
>> show that Mary had no obstacles to being full of grace in that sense
>> because she was free from original sin. I did not find that
>> argument. Of course, I may be making their concept of grace sound
>> too quantitative, not being a theologian myself.
>>
>> Tom Izbicki
>>
>> Diana Wright wrote:
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>> culture
>>>
>>> Tom Izbicki wrote:
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I do mean the term. The concept was "in the making" in the twelfth
>>>> century. Bernard opposed both feast & doctrine - as was noted in a
>>>> previous message, the former supporting the latter. The term we
>>>> use is indeed late, but it is not without precedent. The idea of
>>>> Mary being "sine macula et ruga" existed in the texts I read. One
>>>> odditty, related to the biblical texts. The fact that Gabriel
>>>> referred to Mary as "gratia plena" did not show up in the
>>>> Immaculist arguments. I still find that odd.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know the implications of "gratia plena" in Latin, but the
>>> Greek is of course, in partial translation, "full of gifts" & the
>>> reader decides whether they are gifts already given to her and/or
>>> gifts she has to give. The writer of Luke/Acts was well aware of
>>> Greek literature, & I suspect he had in the corner of his mind
>>> "Pandora" which is "all gifts" given to her by the divinities before
>>> she was shipped down. There is also the irony of the "all gifts"
>>> that were bestowed when the jar was opened, jar in part representing
>>> to the Greeks the womb of the first woman......................
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DW
>>>
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