Glossary? - great idea Pete - nice of you to volunteer!
Kind Regards
Andy Cuckson
Technical / Quality Manager
Peppers Cable Glands Limited
Stanhope Road - Camberley - Surrey GU15 3BT - UK
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-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Curator
Sent: 10 June 2008 15:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mine Agents
If I can throw in my own coin of small denomination here, in Cornwall
there were agents and agents. Often the senior agents were peripatetic
and worked at a number of mines on a part-time basis, supported on the
mines by full-time lesser agents. I am not sure when true mining
engineers came into being; in Cornwall 'engineers' were the men who
installed and ran steam engines; surveying and keeping plans up-to-date
was the responsibility of an agent or captain. Is anyone putting
together a glossary?
Pete Joseph
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Cuckson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Mine Agents
I might have lost the general thread here, but Peter is right to
straighten us out with a definition of agent, which is a term which
might have been used in any situation.
I think somebody on the list mentioned mining co. agents, and such
officials also meet this definition.
When questioned by the Kinnaird Commission (1863), John Job of the
Snailbeach Mine Co. (not yet Ltd.) confirmed that he was "agent and
accountant".
He was the Co's representative at the mine, and all the captains were
subordinate to him.
The Marquis of Bath and Earl Tankerville, the Co's landlords (T'ville
not til a bit later), also had agents, responsible to their employers
generally as Peter describes.
Kind Regards
Andy Cuckson
Technical / Quality Manager
Peppers Cable Glands Limited
Stanhope Road - Camberley - Surrey GU15 3BT - UK
tel: +44 (0) 1276 64232
fax: +44 (0) 1276 691752
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
website: www.cableglands.com
Peppers Cable Glands Ltd is registered in England and Wales, number
2720654, registered office Summer Hill Works, Powell Street, Birmingham,
B1 3DH
The contents of this e mail are confidential and intended solely for the
use of the individual or company to whom it is addressed. If you are
not the intended recipient please contact the originator and delete this
e mail from your system immediately. Opinions expressed in this e mail
are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent the
opinions of Peppers Cable Glands Ltd. Although this e mail and any
attachments are believed to be free of any virus no responsibility is
accepted by Peppers Cable Glands Ltd for any loss or damage arising in
any way from the receipt or use of this e mail or attachments.
Communicating by e mail carries certain risks such as delay,
non-delivery and corruption of data. Internet e mail is not a 100%
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-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Peter King
Sent: 10 June 2008 12:30
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mine Agents
Though I know little of 19th collieries, I will throw in my halfpence
worth.
The term 'agent' means a representative. What his precise role was must
depend on whether the landowner was operating mines himself or leasing
them out. I presume that the Bishop's mines were leased. Accordingly
his agent would be responsible for negotiating the leases and ensuring
that the mines were worked in accordance with the lease, including
ascertaining and collecting the rents and royalties.
Where the land owner worked the mines himself, the agent would be a
general manager of the owners' mines.
Another role must be considered - the mining engineer, whom I take to be
a consultant, paid to advise, sometimes also survey (i.e. map) mines.
Peter King
49, Stourbridge Road,
Hagley,
Stourbridge
West Midlands
DY9 0QS
01562-720368
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Poyner, David
Sent: 09 June 2008 14:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mine Agents
I'm not very familiar with practice in the Northern Coalfield, but my
impression (from what I remember from reading Flinn, History of the
British Coal Industry, Vol 2) was that in the early 19th Century, the
viewer was, at least in some cases, the equivalent of a consulting
mining engineer; John Buddle, Mathias Dunn, George Johnson, etc. As Mike
said, the agent might have broader responsibilities.
David Poyner
-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Mike Syer
Sent: 09 June 2008 14:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mine Agents
I will be interested to see other replies to this query. In the
meantime, I can only give what seems to me to have been the situation in
the Durham coalfield.
I think the Agent, in Durham, was the top man. He was the owner's
representative responsible for all the collieries owned. So his
importance presumably depended on the no. of collieries owned by that
person or partnership or company. Perhaps especially early in the 19th
century, he may, indeed, have been as much a land agent as a colliery
engineer. The Bishop of Durham's Agent, for instance, may have been
involved with the lease of farms and wayleaves as well as mineral
royalties.
I take the Viewer to have been a rank below the Agent, essentially the
manager of a single colliery or group of collieries. Some Census
entries show Viewers as being no older than their early 20s - especially
before the NE Institute of Mining Engineers was founded (in
1852) and (later) colliery managers' certificates were introduced.
But then there were some very notable mining engineers who were Agents
but also Viewers... and indeed owners. Nicholas Wood, for instance, the
first president of the NEIMME, was Viewer of Killingworth colliery,
while also being Lord Ravensworth's general manager or Agent in respect
of his other collieries... and at the same time owned interests in a
number of collieries in his own right. To confuse things a bit more, he
left Killingworth, in 1844, and moved to Hetton, as "Agent" of the
Hetton Coal Co., in which he had been a partner since 1822...
By the end of the 19th century, I think the term "Viewer" was much less
common and that by then the Agent was clearly the engineer responsible
for a company's collieries, while the manager was usually in charge of
just one. (Beneath him there may been one or more under- managers and
beneath them the overmen - with deputy overmen, or deputies, coming
next... Except that you also had a colliery engineer, for instance, who
seems to me to have been as important as the under-manager. I mention
these last points because "overman", also, seems to me to have been a
rather ambiguous term earlier on, perhaps even equating to a colliery
manager in some cases. Perhaps that, too, depended on the size of the
enterprise.)
I'm sorry if this confuses more than it clarifies! In answer to Keith's
query, though, I am pretty sure that Agents were senior to Viewers and
that the latter could be quite young, early in the 19th century - in the
Durham coalfield, at least. The age, qualification or experience
required to be an Agent may have depended on the size of the company, or
the size of the estate of the land owner.
Mike
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On 9 Jun 2008, at 10:32, Keith Jackson wrote:
> Several of my ancestors have proved to be Mine Agents in various
> coalfields and I understand that this term effectively relates to the
> modern post of mine manager, though I don't know whether that would
> have meant what we'd currently think of as a manager or would also
> have applied to posts equivalent to under-managers. I would not have
> thought it would have applied to deputies and over-men because the
> term agent suggests he would have been an owners' representative and
> there would have been only one per mine or perhaps one per shift
> necessary. I don't know when mine management became a statutory
> occupation but I'd guess in the early- to mid-19th century that there
> would neither a national qualification nor national or local
> registration of officials. On that basis, would I be right in assuming
> that Mine Agents would be appointed entirely on the basis of
> experience and aptitude?
>
> Although there would have been many small pits in this period, each
> with at least one agent, I can't imagine that it would have been all
> that easy for a miner to rise to agent, even so, and that there would
> have been a fair number of dead men's boots to be filled on the way
> up. Is it be reasonable to assume that it would be unusual for anyone
> to become an agent before their mid-thirties at the very earliest and
> to be more likely not to happen until they were into their forties?
>
> Although I'm ex-NCB, I worked at the MRDE/TSRE near Burton on Trent so
> my knowledge of mine management is limited as I was never pit- based.
>
> Keith
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