PS Roger
your question was where am I going to? Presumably, the grave, like
everyone else. Other than that, I can't answer that question, I can
describe a bit where I am, which is what I tried to do.
.
2008/5/12 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>:
> Well I've just looked back over your post Roger and the only thing I
> haven't addressed is the closing paragraph about the 'duchamp
> ready-made'.
> That's because I haven't said anything about it anyhow. My comments
> about the avant-garde have been about some aspects of its
> manifestations in English language poetry. Only some aspects, mind
> you.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2008/5/12 Roger Day <[log in to unmask]>:
> > Is it me or is your reading comprehension going? You're certainly keen
> > enough to avoid what I asked or what I was saying.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:47 PM, David Bircumshaw
> >
> >
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Ps Roger
> > >
> > > As for God is dead. Linguistically, culturally, psychologically, no: a
> > > visit to any mosque or evangelical church will demonstrate that to
> > > you. Equally you can visit Gillian K.Ferguson's poem.
> > > As far as rational, scientific discourse is concerned, yes. Richard
> > > Dawkins will explain that to anyone who cares to listen. But people,
> > > even Richard Dawkins, being primates, still have the instincts to
> > > subordinate or dominate. You can take a line of sophistication too, in
> > > that as well as meaning Magistrate or Top-Person the name of God also
> > > just means 'to be' and I guess most of us believe we exist at least as
> > > much as we doubt it. Even if the sum-total of all energy in the
> > > Universe is really Zero.
> > > As the Author, she's quietly changing her name to The Celebrity. As
> > > that nice Catalan poet said to me, you have to advertise nowadays if
> > > you want to become someone.
> > >
> > > And there was poor me thinking I was someone to start with, at least
> > > just as much as I'm a no-one.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/5/12 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > > I liked Larkin's description of railway lines as seen from the end of
> > > > a station platform. I liked it because I worked on the railways for a
> > > > decade.
> > > > I not long ago too posted a poem here which I hope made clear my sense
> > > > of distance from the Larkinesque. But, for the record, I have no doubt
> > > > about Larkin's disdain for the working class, or his
> > > > anti-intellectualism.
> > > > But it doesn't mean I trust the alleged avant-garde either. Or,
> > > > particularly, Perloff's insistence that you can overlook the fascism
> > > > in writers like Pound.
> > > > At the moment though I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact
> > > > that last Friday we unwittingly provided played hosts to the local
> > > > Serbian Chetnik poetry appreciation society. And that the poet who
> > > > read was:
> > > >
> > > > a) a self-described European poet writing in English.
> > > >
> > > > b) published by Salt
> > > >
> > > > c) an admirer of Pound who used traditional forms so predictable I
> > > > could see the following rhyme before the next line began. At various
> > > > points he described himself as English, at others as Jewish, he
> > > > repeatedly mentioned to the Serb visitors that he thought that the
> > > > Allies should have supported the Royalists in WWWII, that the Muslims
> > > > in Bosnia and Kossovo were ethnically Serb, that he hated current
> > > > English poetry.
> > > >
> > > > d) a symbolist, a mythicist, who compared himself to Yeats
> > > >
> > > > while
> > > >
> > > > e) he treated us like servants, teaches at Cambridge, made nearly 600
> > > > quid for an hour and a bit reading
> > > >
> > > > f) that the audience loved it all, apart it seemed from me and the
> > > > only other person present who actually was working-class. One of our
> > > > members said to me on the way out 'I bet your really enjoyed having an
> > > > avant-garde poet here tonight'. I just said 'Do you think so?' I was
> > > > otherwise speechless. He had my closest friend selling his books for
> > > > him on the break, I can't even talk to her about the horror the
> > > > evening inspired in me. We had a poet who proclaims a belief in peace,
> > > > and ethnic determination, who allies himself somehow with the
> > > > avant-garde while writing poetry so mechanically predictable it could
> > > > be done by software. He has won prizes a-plenty. Salt publish him.
> > > > Cambridge nurtures him. The Chetnik's friend. Who says he's Jew, and
> > > > proud to be English and to have met Ezra Pound in the 1960s.
> > > >
> > > > Man, it did my head in. I haven't had a drink in seven months but I
> > > > almost went and got pissed afterwards. I felt +that+ close to it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2008/5/12 Roger Day <[log in to unmask]>:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A question for you, Dave. Where are you going with this? Pace your
> > > > > comments about knowing about those who or what our ancestors are
> > > > > about, and I agree with it, however your comments ascend at times into
> > > > > polemic and leaps of logic such as the final sentence. I wonder what
> > > > > lies behind this single-minded pursuit? What is it Nietsche said? If
> > > > > you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will gaze into you? But
> > > > > then, as much as fashionable people today want to ignore it, someone
> > > > > has said that god is dead. Bury the idea, discredit the authors. It's
> > > > > there, just as Alan Moore laid the tombstone for Superman.
> > > > >
> > > > > I note your favorable comments about Larkin and the disconnect you
> > > > > made between his letters and his poetry. If anything, Larkin
> > > > > condescended and looked down that long, dour nose in his poetry,
> > > > > hating those post-war consumers. The hatred for fancy European
> > > > > theorists, the general distaste for the working-class shared by a lot
> > > > > of the working-class "who made good." A while, before I was ill, I
> > > > > used to catch myself burying my past, showing a Larkinesque disdain
> > > > > for the working class. I've changed for the better I hope. I wonder
> > > > > even now if some undergraduate is cementing Larkins' pornography with
> > > > > his poetics ah, he mysogyny of it all.
> > > > >
> > > > > The duchamp readymade has a long lineage in the art-world, it is much
> > > > > mocked by the right-wing press. However, as much as people (the Daily
> > > > > Mail, say) deride such Duchampean or Picabian japes, we have to deal
> > > > > with it; it is there, people, well, me included make these things.
> > > > > It's not going away, as much as you'd like it to. Engaging with it
> > > > > rather than denying it would seem to be a more fruitful option but to
> > > > > each their own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 8:13 AM, David Bircumshaw
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks for posting that link, Max.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it worth observing that the piece reminds me that the roots of
> > > > > > English language modernism are in the culturally segregated
> > > > > > aestheticism of the 1890s - this is where the looking-down superiority
> > > > > > of Pound, Eliot and Stevens originates, and that the fetish of
> > > > > > 'experiment' divorced from content reinforces that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2008/5/11 Max Richards <[log in to unmask]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 12/5/08 3:45 AM, "Douglas Barbour" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> And an intriguing wandering it is, Christopher. I don't pretend to
> > > > > > >> 'get' it all yet, or at least so far as to respond coherently, but I
> > > > > > >> think I tend to agree with you. I wonder about those of us who do find
> > > > > > >> ourselves working the fragment & the non-narrative (at least in some
> > > > > > >> ways) while also feeling that we do need to remember, or to do what
> > > > > > >> battle we can with 'historical amnesia' (wonderfully examined, in one
> > > > > > >> area, in a piece by Marilynne Robinson in the latest Harper's). I
> > > > > > >> admire the use of narrative as a means, but it's not my means...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Doug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Robinson's Harper's essay:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.ephblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/harpersmagazine-2008-05-00
> > > > > > > 82007.pdf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > David Bircumshaw
> > > > > > Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> > > > > > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> > > > > > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > "She went out with her paint box, paints the chapel blue
> > > > > She went out with her matches, torched the car-wash too"
> > > > > The Go-Betweens
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Bircumshaw
> > > > Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> > > > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> > > > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > David Bircumshaw
> > > Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> > > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> > > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > "She went out with her paint box, paints the chapel blue
> > She went out with her matches, torched the car-wash too"
> > The Go-Betweens
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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