medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
> [The Victorine order had abbeys,
have to look at the charters, see how they referred to themselves.
otherwise one might fall into the Anachronist Trap of thinking that all
collegial churches were... well, churches.
don't think i've ever looked through a Victorine cartulary.
Jean Dufour's new ed. of Louis VI's charters would work, as well.
in Dufour #80, 1113, Louis styles the place
aecclesia Beati Victoris quae juxta Parisiorum civitatem sita est, consultu
quidem archiepiscoporum et episcoporum et optimatum regni nostri, canonicos
regulariter viventes ordinari volui...
[note: no mention of St. Augustine]
and
praefatae Sancti Victoris aecclesiae...prefata Sancti Victoris aecclesia
Dufour 233, 1125,
communi et abbatum et canonicorum assensu, aecclesiae Sancti Victoris
concessimus... prefata aecclesia Sancti Victoris .... prefati canonici Sancti
Victoris
>>[ME] according to Du Cange, Niermeyer and the OED, any institution which
had an abbot was an _abbatiam_, i.e., "abbey".
> The Austin Canons
there were no "Austin Canons" in France, as far as i know --certainly never
seen the term, in Latin or French.
>got round this by calling the head of the house a "prelate".
a clear Dodge, just to get around the contentious issue of whether nor not to
call their houses "abbeys," thereby inflaming the Pedants of future
centuries.
prefering, "prelateries," i assume.
there's no accounting for English Taste.
>But you are ignoring my point that the Victorines had abbeys, e.g. St
Augustine's, Bristol - now Bristol Cathedral.
as far as i am aware (and it's been quite a while since i did Victorinism)
there was no cathedral chapter [or chapter of a Royal collegial abbey] in
France which was sucessfully reformed by the Victorines.
the Opposition was just too strong and entrenched.
they possessed --from their Royal charter of 1125 (Dufour 233)-- a prebend in
several cathedral chapters under the King's control and the "annates" [a
year's income from vacant prebends] in other cathedral chapters and the
chapters of the Royal [collegial] Abbeys, both of these increasing in number
as the "Order" [to use your word] grew.
in addition to these, some secular collegials were given to them to reform
(can't think of an example at the moment, but Trust me); and, they no doubt
had some new foundations.
whether institutions in the latter group were under the headship of an "abbot"
or a "prior", i know not.
but, i would be somewhat surprised if the latter --rather than the former--
were not the case.
>No-one disputes that St Victor was an abbey, and was a house of regular
canons.
if you say so.
but somebody told me that [all] "collegials" were "churches."
>As such, it is not relevant to the original point at issue - unless the whole
thing is a misunderstanding on your part.
i'm sure it is.
that must be It.
>>> the Augustinians had priories.]
>> in England, perhaps.
> Well, I certainly understand the English situation best. I remain to be
convinced that you understand the French situation.
"understand" being a relative term (unlike "certainly"), i'm sure you're
right.
>> "Augustinians" is a somewhat vague and (at the least) anachronistic
term to apply to French collegials in the 12th c.
> It is neither vague,
only in the sense of
1. Of statements, etc.: Couched in general or indefinite terms; not definitely
or precisely expressed; deficient in details or particulars.
2. Of words, language, etc.: Not precise or exact in meaning.
3. a. Of ideas, knowledge, etc.: Lacking in definiteness or precision:
indefinite, indistinct.
>nor particularly anachronistic. It would be more anachronistic to say
"Augustinian Order", as the concept of religious orders only developed during
the 12th century. You would be on firmer ground in attacking me for saying
"Victorine Order",
o.k., i'll do that, then.
'cept, "attack" is a pretty strong word.
how about something civilized and Englishy, like "take exception to" ?
one reason why "Augustinian Order" is anachronistic might be that it was,
originally, a Reform movement, taking aim at pre-existing institutions (St.
Victor being an exception).
did Bill Champheaux think of himself as an "Augustinian"?
would there be any actual *source* for that (or of any other early 12th c.
reformed canon thinking of himself as/refering to himself as an
"Augustinian")?
somewhere recently i came across a 12th c. dispute between a Benedictine and a
Regular Canon, but i can't recall how the B. refered to his collegial
counterpart.
but, i'd be amazed if he called him an "Augustinian."
that would be anachronistic.
and vague.
>as they are best regarded
lapsing into the Passive Voice
>as a congregation rather than a separate order.
i've certainly never seen any 12th c. source which spoke of a Victorine
"congregation." [doesn't mean that there isn't one, note.]
i wonder how they thought of themselves, in the beginning --recalling the
Whatsername/Waddell debate about the Cistercians' orginal thinking about
themselves. [all i can think of is Connie Bouchard, and it wasn't her.]
>But there is nothing wrong with calling all regular canons living under the
Rule of St Augustine
"Augustinian",
except that it's anachronistic.
it appears to be an Early Modren confection:
AUGUSTINIAN
2. Belonging to (n. one of) the order of Augustines.
1602 W. WATSON Decacord. 75 Dominicans, Augustinians, and other poore
religious Friers.
1875 T. LINDSAY in Sund. Mag. June 589 The Augustinian monks in Brussels.
1882 Athenæum 3 June 692/3 A house of Augustinian canons.
but, better than "Austin" --at least for 12th c. France-- and Any Port in a
Storm, i suppose.
>unless they belong to a separate 'Order' - e.g. the Premonstratensians. The
Premonstratensians, incidentally, followed the Cistercian practice, and termed
all their houses abbeys.
no accounting for Taste.
they had "abbots" i presume, and were therefore, by the Licence of Du Cange,
permitted to call their houses "abbeys".
> As I said, collegiate/collegial [collégiale] is best reserved for houses of
secular canons.
COLLEGIAL
[a. F. collégial, or ad. L. collgil-is, f. collgium COLLEGE.]
1. Of the nature of, or constituted as, a college. collegial church: =
collegiate church.
1530 PALSGR. 207/1 Collegial churche, esglise collegialle.
1530-1 Act 22 Hen. VIII, c. 15 Cathedralle and collegiall churches.
1641 HEYLIN Help to Hist. (1671) 241 The Castle and the Collegial Church being
both in rubbish. 1670 G. H. Hist. Cardinals I. iii. 68 There are sometimes two
or three together of principal dignity in some Collegial Churches.
the OED expressed the opinion that this usage might be archaic but, hey, the
Founder of the Church of England can't be "archaic", can he?
i've always thought that he was Infallible.
>Secular canons, I need hardly add, did not live under a Rule
which is why they were styled "secular"
>- although there is wriggle room in the case of the Rule of St
Chrodegang/Rule of Aix. Those living under this Rule (pretty well obsolete by
the 12th century)
yes, a Dead Letter.
like the Carolingian Dynasty itself.
>are regarded as a secular (it fell out of use because it was insufficiently
'regular'.)
proving that the middlevils were not excessively Literal Minded.
>> e.g., St. John's of Chartres, reformed in the 1090s by Bishop Ivo certainly
had an abbot.
>> Ivo's sucessor, Bishop Godfrey, refers to the canons living a regular life
according to "the canons instituted by St. Augustine" (#19 below)--
>> though i've yet to see any source which refers to it as an _abbatia_,. it
most definitely was *never* referred to as a "priory"
> Well, can you be sure it wasn't Victorine?
well, pretty much, yeah.
Ivo's reform Stuck --no opposition from the Count, Vidame (who was tied to the
place) or his immediate sucessor bishops (Godfrey of Leves, his nephew, Goslen
of Muzy, etc.).
far as i know the church of St. Victor of Paris didn't even have a prebend in
it, nor rights to the annates there --though St. John had a prebend in the
cathedral chapter (and maybe the annates there, too, i can't recall).
Bishop Godfrey (Ivo's sucessor) might have favored the Victorines within his
own chapter, but not at St. John's, i don't believe.
>I don't have reference works for French churches
so i gather.
>- particularly those that no longer exist.
well, what of what interest can they possibly be, if they no longer exist?
like, say, St. Victor of Paris.
btw, the Primary Source for collegial church of St. John of Chartres remains
René Merlet, ed. Cartulaire de Saint-Jean-en-Vallée de Chartres. Chartres,
1906.
not yet available on The Innernets, apparently.
c
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