"permanent seismic shifts in the nature of the Web and online  
consumers from the short-term whorls and eddies of fashion"

It's kind of hard to deal with a 'seismic shift' when your planning  
what to do next. They tend to get recognised and labelled only  
historically.

Don't we have to experiment with, and maybe gamble on a few "eddies of  
fashion"?

Paul

On 27 Mar 2008, at 12:48, Nick Poole wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for this. I want to check something though, to do with your  
> assertion:
>
>> More importantly we're also *still* (after all these years...)  
>> thinking in
>> terms of "a flowable, understandable, linear user experience"  
>> through "our
>> website". This is NOT (repeat...) how the web works any more.
>
> At the risk of sounding like the 'television? That'll never catch  
> on...' guy - I'm really not sure I agree with you.
>
> Up there at the bleeding edge of where the Web goes next there is an  
> almost axiomatic mantra (non-linear, fragmented, participative). For  
> real, non-technologist users who are seeking information or  
> entertainment, all this non-linearity is frankly a bit annoying -  
> for every tech guru I've met who says that UGC is the future of  
> media, I meet someone over the age of 35 who finds it a bit irksome  
> that all these websites are suddenly asking them to write stuff for  
> them.
>
> People *do* want websites - because we have a consumer population  
> that are used to information being packaged and presented, and they  
> are used to making qualitative decisions about the value of that  
> information based on brand and credibility.
>
> I am a bit concerned that these developments are really being pushed  
> by technology - it's almost as if we said 'ok, we've separated  
> content from presentation, we've got stuff in repositories, we've  
> done some interoperability stuff. So...er..now what? I know! We can  
> mash it all together to create new things, which aren't websites,  
> but which are a bit like them, only different.'
>
> Of course, there is a younger demographic who are Bebo-ing  
> themselves silly, but they'll grow up and there is always the  
> possibility that they'll grow out of it. I *really* don't want to  
> sit on enthusiasm and innovation, and I completely accept the  
> 'speculative can lead to longer-term' argument which Tehmina puts  
> forward but how do we distinguish real, permanent seismic shifts in  
> the nature of the Web and online consumers from the short-term  
> whorls and eddies of fashion?
>
> I am sick of my Facebook, I haven't been back to my MySpace in  
> weeks, my Bebo account is almost dead, I've got at least 4 moribund  
> blogs and every time I post a comment on a Wiki I get flamed by an  
> American teenager. Is this really the brave new world we want to  
> build?
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Poole
> Chief Executive
> MDA
>
> www.mda.org.uk
> www.collectionslink.org.uk
>
>
>
> Tel:  01223 316028
> Fax: 01223 364658
>
> MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565
> Reg. Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf  
> Of electronic museum
> Sent: 27 March 2008 12:31
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: British  
> Postal Museum & Archive Wiki]
>
> Oof. So much to respond to and so little time.
>
> In brief..I think we're in danger of making some fairly classic  
> museum type
> generalisations, about "what people want" "what they need" "what  
> they might
> want if we showed it to them"..
>
> More importantly we're also *still* (after all these years...)  
> thinking in
> terms of "a flowable, understandable, linear user experience"  
> through "our
> website". This is NOT (repeat...) how the web works any more. I'm  
> not sure
> it ever was, tbh, and that's why we (as a sector) have often found
> ourselves building things which ought to be popular, but aren't.  
> It's also
> why some of the things we didn't expect to be popular actually  
> turned out to
> be huge!
>
> Let's take Twitter as one example in a field of hundreds. Mode of  
> use is
> probably NOT "hey, a museum on Twitter, I'll follow it". Mode of use
> probably IS "I've seen something interesting which HAPPENS to be on  
> a museum
> website and I'll post it to Twitter...". Result - clicks, visibility  
> - a
> good thing at least as far as funders are concerned. <insert  
> argument here
> />
>
> People are fickle; the web is loosely coupled; users get whatever it  
> is
> they're looking for (and some things they didn't know they were  
> looking for)
> wherever they can. A lot of your traffic IS NOT YOUR AUDIENCE but  
> PEOPLE WHO
> HAPPENED UPON YOUR STUFF.
>
> So what does this mean to development of services? Predictably, it's
> complicated. There *has* to be an element of *push* (or we'd still be
> rolling out endless damn catalogues of boring stuff) but at the same  
> time
> there also *has* to be an element of user testing, too.
>
> Here's where I am on this stuff - Groundhog day-like I notice I  
> posted it
> following a similar MCG thread... http://tinyurl.com/yvpgmx :-)
> ta!
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Tehmina Goskar  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Nick.  You are right in many senses.  No one wants to waste  
>> money.
>> However I very much see many of these things in the same way as other
>> short
>> to medium-term ventures: temporary exhibitions, conferences,  
>> workshops and
>> other 'events'.  For any longer term online sustainability and  
>> visibility
>> I
>> can't think of any better way to achieve this than to invest  
>> properly in
>> well-described collections-based and subject-based information that  
>> is
>> well
>> designed and detectable.
>>
>> Perhaps therefore we also need to add longevity aims to this  
>> equation?   A
>> sandbox sounds interesting though I wonder if some may prefer just  
>> to go
>> for
>> it?  I have no opinion on this either way but I feel very strongly  
>> that
>> the
>> more people exchange their experiences, the better informed others  
>> will
>> be.
>> No project is directly transferrable but lessons learnt certainly  
>> are.
>>
>> As for twitter specifically, I don't use it as I don't want to tell  
>> people
>> what I am doing every few moments (though it is all extremely  
>> interesting
>> of
>> course) nor do I wish to know what others are doing.  However would  
>> some
>> event at a museum be well-served with a twitter-esque application?
>> Perhaps
>> it would.  Therefore such things can also help aid creative problem
>> solving
>> at a relatively negligible cost.
>>
>> And I wonder where the prejudice against the Siliconites comes  
>> from?  If
>> we
>> look within our own broad community, we all do and think of things in
>> different ways, we wouldn't all want to be thought of in the same  
>> way,
>> surely?  Can we ever say we've reached the 'wrong' audience when  
>> doing
>> stuff
>> on the web?
>>
>> Tehmina
>>
>> On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tehmina,
>>>
>>> Thanks for a very interesting and balanced post. I think you are  
>>> correct
>> -
>>> there is an element of exploration involved here, which is  
>>> obviously an
>>> important part of innovation. My concern with these things has  
>>> always
>> been
>>> the risk of a large number of museums investing in basically
>> unsustainable
>>> services which do little to support their core mission.
>>>
>>> On the subject of Twitter, you ask which museum wouldn't want the  
>>> brief
>>> attention of a million people. Firstly, it is highly unlikely that  
>>> of
>> this
>>> million claimed users, more than a couple of tens of thousands are
>> *really*
>>> active users (it's the same issue with Second Life's claimed
>> population).
>>> This really is a niche market, and my answer would be that even a
>> million
>>> brief viewers is of little use at all if it's the *wrong* million,  
>>> or if
>> our
>>> information is lost in a torrent of in-jokes and Silicon Valley  
>>> startup
>>> party invites.
>>>
>>> We need to think hard about which problems we are going to try and
>> solve,
>>> and then identify the best technologies to do so. Imagine a world in
>> which
>>> Twitter did not exist (give it a couple of years...) would you  
>>> really
>> invent
>>> a constantly-updated trivia machine as the best way of communicating
>> with
>>> museum audiences?
>>>
>>> I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't.
>>>
>>> Which takes us back to your original proposition - how do museums  
>>> find
>> the
>>> time and money to play with innovative/speculative services, even  
>>> where
>>> these don't necessarily resolve to long-term changes in the way we  
>>> do
>>> things? I know that Eduserv were looking at investing in a
>> sandbox/incubator
>>> in which museums could muck about with stuff. I think there is real
>>> potential in having a safe 'playground' in which to test these
>> propositions
>>> before they become live services. Is this something which people  
>>> would
>> find
>>> appealing?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick Poole
>>> Chief Executive
>>> MDA
>>>
>>> www.mda.org.uk
>>> www.collectionslink.org.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tel:  01223 316028
>>> Fax: 01223 364658
>>>
>>> MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565
>>> Reg. Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf  
>>> Of
>>> Tehmina Goskar
>>> Sent: 27 March 2008 10:23
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: British  
>>> Postal
>>> Museum & Archive Wiki]
>>>
>>> There is also, of course, the speculative aspect of using web 2  
>>> methods
>> to
>>> either solicit user response or get them to create information for  
>>> you
>> or
>>> spread your information elsewhere.  As both Mike and Nick note,  
>>> every
>>> organisation and project has specific needs and aims and these are  
>>> the
>>> things that should come first.  However I wonder if many  
>>> organisations
>> big
>>> and small are using social networking tools and related  
>>> applications in
>> a
>>> speculative way - to see what happens.  This may result in
>> 'interactions'
>>> far beyond expectations or more modest ones but certainly quite  
>>> often
>>> unexpected ones.
>>>
>>> Many of us who have used flickr, for example, have done so with a  
>>> desire
>>> simply to share information with no specific view on _who_ we should
>> share
>>> these things with.  As an individual, I have done the same and  
>>> have been
>>> quite surprised at some of the interest in my photographs, e.g.  
>>> for a
>>> southern American recipe book, for a citizenship website, for an
>>> alternative
>>> health documentary, for a popular archaeological textbook... some  
>>> have
>>> also
>>> been shared on enthusiasts websites including one on manhole  
>>> covers.  I
>>> did
>>> not seek any of these outcomes - and certainly did not expect
>>> them.  Museums
>>> and heritage organisations who do the same will likewise not  
>>> always know
>>> how
>>> such things will turn out.
>>>
>>> A propos the previous post on the critique of apps such as  
>>> twitter, a
>>> million people may not be a big number for Oracle or Cisco but which
>>> museum
>>> online or otherwise would not want a million people's attention,  
>>> however
>>> brief, on their collections and information?  The technology is also
>>> reciprocal.  It's not all about what our audiences will get out of  
>>> it
>> but
>>> what _we_ can get out of it too.
>>>
>>> There is, for sure, a horses for courses basic rule to using web
>>> applications to increase awareness of your organisation and its
>>> information
>>> but there is also a speculative aspect which, it seems to me, is
>> important
>>> -
>>> there is also an element of this to putting on temporary  
>>> exhibitions -
>> it
>>> is
>>> not always clear who will be interested in them and results can
>> sometimes
>>> be
>>> surprising.  How you weigh up this speculation against time and  
>>> resource
>>> costs is a more difficult matter to resolve.  The choice just  
>>> needs to
>> be
>>> well-informed.
>>>
>>> Tehmina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Rhiannon,
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks for your email about the BPMA Wiki. I would be really
>>>> interested to know more about why the BPMA took the decision to
>>> implement a
>>>> Wiki. Is it something your online audience have been requesting? Is
>>> there a
>>>> specific target demographic for whom a Wiki is their preferred  
>>>> form of
>>>> interaction?
>>>>
>>>> The reason I ask is because of your comment about taking time to  
>>>> get
>>>> people on there. Of course, this may simply be the inertia faced by
>> any
>>>> fledgling service, but at the same time I am not sure whether  
>>>> this is
>>>> central to your mission or an incidental add-on.
>>>>
>>>> Not to be too negative about things, but (bearing in mind the  
>>>> recent
>>>> exchange between Frankie and Mike) I remain sceptical about the
>>>> appropriateness of models like social networking and participative
>> media
>>> to
>>>> the delivery of museums online. As Mike notes, there's no hard and
>> fast
>>> rule
>>>> - it's appropriate when it's appropriate - but I'd be really
>> interested
>>> to
>>>> know whether this is a case of 'because we can' or whether there  
>>>> is a
>>>> genuine audience/marketing driver behind this thing.
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, I'd be very interested to know more about the outcomes  
>>>> of
>>> your
>>>> dissertation - not just from a quantitative point of view (how many
>>> museums
>>>> are doing this), but also from a qualitative one (of those museums,
>> how
>>> may
>>>> are doing it well, and how many will still be an actively supported
>>> resource
>>>> in 2 years time).
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I see the potential of crowdsourcing interpretation and
>>>> selection, and the Wiki model certainly offers a potential  
>>>> channel for
>>>> people to get at the museums back-end systems, but I think we run  
>>>> the
>>> risk
>>>> of overlooking the very specific psychology and demographics of  
>>>> User
>>>> Generated Content, and regarding it as something appropriate for a
>>>> generalist audience.
>>>>
>>>> Any further info gratefully received!
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nick Poole
>>>> Chief Executive
>>>> MDA
>>>>
>>>> www.mda.org.uk
>>>> www.collectionslink.org.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tel:  01223 316028
>>>> Fax: 01223 364658
>>>>
>>>> MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565
>>>> Reg. Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On  
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Rhiannon Looseley
>>>> Sent: 26 March 2008 17:43
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: British Postal Museum & Archive Wiki
>>>>
>>>> Dear all
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought some of you might be interested in hearing about the new
>>>> British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA) Wiki:
>>>> www.postalheritage.org.uk/wiki.  It's based on Zwiki technology  
>>>> which
>> is
>>>> Zope/Plone developers' answer to Wiki technology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's a bit of an experiment and at the moment, unsurprisingly, it's
>>>> taking a bit of time to get people on there.  I've started a few
>> 'seeds'
>>>> to get people started.  At the bottom of this email is an example  
>>>> of
>> the
>>>> email we sent out to our E-Newsletter mailing list to try and
>> encourage
>>>> people to contribute.  It gives you an example of some of the seeds
>>>> we're using at the moment.  We've created similar flyers and
>> newsletter
>>>> articles as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in hearing any suggestions others might  
>>>> have on
>>>> topics we could use to get people started and also experiences of
>>>> building up a community like this.  I'm particularly keen to find  
>>>> ways
>>>> of making the most of Wikis' potential for collaborative work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also if you're interested, I'm currently writing my MA in Museum
>> Studies
>>>> Dissertation on Museum Wikis, with ours as a case study.  I'm  
>>>> blogging
>>>> about my progress at: http://rhiannonlooseley.blogspot.com if  
>>>> anyone
>> is
>>>> interested in following my progress.  I'd welcome any comments  
>>>> along
>> the
>>>> way (please let me know if you specifically don't want me to quote
>> your
>>>> comments, either on my blog, or by email, in my dissertation).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Rhiannon Looseley
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Rhiannon Looseley
>>>>
>>>> Web Officer
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 020 7239 2588
>>>>
>>>> Fax: 020 7239 2576
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> The British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA)
>>>>
>>>> Freeling House, Phoenix Place, London WC1X 0DL
>>>>
>>>> www.postalheritage.org.uk <http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> British postal communications helped to shape the modern world. The
>>>> British Postal Museum & Archive illuminates the lives of people  
>>>> in the
>>>> Post Office, the messages carried by Royal Mail, the history we all
>>>> share. Our history through the post.
>>>>
>>>> The BPMA is the public identity of the Postal Heritage Trust.
>>>>
>>>> Registered as a charity in England and Wales.
>>>> Registered Charity Number 1102360
>>>> Company Number 4896056
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Family History Research
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Researching your postal ancestors? Want to share what you've
>> discovered
>>>> with a wider audience? Why not use the Wiki to tell others about  
>>>> your
>>>> research?
>>>>
>>>> Use the Wiki Family history research
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE7Q6963B7UOK4YSTV 
>>>> >
>>>> page to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Postal History
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you know a lot about a certain aspect of postal history? Have  
>>>> you
>>>> uncovered a particularly interesting story in our archive? Why not
>> tell
>>>> us more about them on the Wiki?
>>>>
>>>> Use the Wiki Postal history
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEYMPO78SIJ7MY0JO3 
>>>> >
>>>> page to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Working with our collections
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you/do you work for the Post Office? Do you recognise some of  
>>>> the
>>>> objects and documents in our Collections section
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE0QP7O71MVGI0PIQW 
>>>> >
>> ?
>>>> Why not tell us about what it was/is like to work with them?
>>>>
>>>> Use the Wiki Working with our collections
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEBHDGUI0DHZ2L69O7 
>>>> >
>>>> page to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Working for the Post Office
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you/do you work for the Post Office or Royal Mail? Tell us  
>>>> about
>>>> your experiences on the Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think has changed over the years? We'd be interested to
>> hear
>>>> what you think.
>>>>
>>>> Use the Wiki Working for the Post Office
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OECZXA1DOTRLJIRJAD 
>>>> >
>>>> to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Letter boxes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a digital image of a particularly interesting letter  
>>>> box?
>>>> Why not upload your image to the Wiki and tell us more about it.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a letter box near you that you would like to know more  
>>>> about?
>>>> Maybe someone else out there can help you with your query. You  
>>>> could
>>>> post a question on the Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> Use the Wiki Letter boxes
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE789FM2I4ZDYIV491 
>>>> >
>>>> page to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> War Memorials in the Post Office
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you noticed a War Memorial in your local Post Office? Please  
>>>> help
>>>> us compile our database of Post Office War Memorials.
>>>>
>>>> Use our Wiki War Memorials in the Post Office
>>>> <http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OETUG225U1E5M98XFF 
>>>> >
>>>> page to get started.
>>>>
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **************************************************
>>>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
>>>> visit
>>> the
>>>> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>>>> **************************************************
>>>>
>>>> **************************************************
>>>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
>>>> visit
>>> the
>>>> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>>>> **************************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia
>>> Museum Specialist
>>> Historian
>>>
>>> **************************************************
>>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
>>> visit
>> the
>>> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>>> **************************************************
>>>
>>> **************************************************
>>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
>>> visit
>> the
>>> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>>> **************************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia
>> Museum Specialist
>> Historian
>>
>> **************************************************
>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
>> visit the
>> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
>> **************************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________
>
> electronic museum
>
> ..thoughts on museums, the social web, innovation
>
> w: http://www.electronicmuseum.org.uk
> f: http://electronicmuseum.wordpress.com/feed
> e: [log in to unmask]
>
> **************************************************
> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
> visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> **************************************************
>
> **************************************************
> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,  
> visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> **************************************************


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Technical Manager
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http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/
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