I think a sandbox would be a very useful tool from the technical point
of view of safely experimenting with the technology, but I'm not sure
how it would help to see how collaborative technologies, for example,
are taken up and used by communities. As Tehmina has pointed out,
interaction and collaboration has occurred in unexpected ways; surely a
'safe' playground would not give a true representation of how a live
service would work? 

The dilemma we face is that we are not agile enough to keep pace with
how technology is developing, and our only chance to keep up may be to
involve ourselves in some of these areas. Obviously, we should be
careful and discerning about what we do, how we do it and how much of it
we do, but we can't afford to stand back and watch. Not every museum
will have the time and resources to get involved, but those that do can
help to discover the areas in which we should get involved, and ways of
doing it. I'm sure that in the early days of museum websites, there were
plenty of museums who felt that they could not spare time and money on
something that might not catch on; but some museums blazed a trail, and
now it's more unusual not to have a website. They vary in quality and
usefulness in the same way as exhibitions and events within a museum
building vary.

I do tend to agree that technology should be seen as a tool rather than
an end in itself though, and we shouldn't lose sight of our audience in
the enthusiasm for new technology. In some cases, the technology allows
us to do things that we have always done, just in new and different ways
- it doesn't necessarily lead to a complete change of our core values
and activities.

I think much of this is probably said much better in Mike's blog!

Sian

Sian Woodward
IT Officer & Cataloguer (Collections)
The British Postal Museum & Archive 

-----Original Message-----
From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
electronic museum
Sent: Thursday 27 March 2008 12:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: British Postal
Museum & Archive Wiki]

Oof. So much to respond to and so little time.

In brief..I think we're in danger of making some fairly classic museum
type
generalisations, about "what people want" "what they need" "what they
might
want if we showed it to them"..

More importantly we're also *still* (after all these years...) thinking
in
terms of "a flowable, understandable, linear user experience" through
"our
website". This is NOT (repeat...) how the web works any more. I'm not
sure
it ever was, tbh, and that's why we (as a sector) have often found
ourselves building things which ought to be popular, but aren't. It's
also
why some of the things we didn't expect to be popular actually turned
out to
be huge!

Let's take Twitter as one example in a field of hundreds. Mode of use is
probably NOT "hey, a museum on Twitter, I'll follow it". Mode of use
probably IS "I've seen something interesting which HAPPENS to be on a
museum
website and I'll post it to Twitter...". Result - clicks, visibility - a
good thing at least as far as funders are concerned. <insert argument
here
/>

People are fickle; the web is loosely coupled; users get whatever it is
they're looking for (and some things they didn't know they were looking
for)
wherever they can. A lot of your traffic IS NOT YOUR AUDIENCE but PEOPLE
WHO
HAPPENED UPON YOUR STUFF.

So what does this mean to development of services? Predictably, it's
complicated. There *has* to be an element of *push* (or we'd still be
rolling out endless damn catalogues of boring stuff) but at the same
time
there also *has* to be an element of user testing, too.

Here's where I am on this stuff - Groundhog day-like I notice I posted
it
following a similar MCG thread... http://tinyurl.com/yvpgmx :-)
ta!

Mike


On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Tehmina Goskar <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Thanks, Nick.  You are right in many senses.  No one wants to waste
money.
> However I very much see many of these things in the same way as other
> short
> to medium-term ventures: temporary exhibitions, conferences, workshops
and
> other 'events'.  For any longer term online sustainability and
visibility
> I
> can't think of any better way to achieve this than to invest properly
in
> well-described collections-based and subject-based information that is
> well
> designed and detectable.
>
> Perhaps therefore we also need to add longevity aims to this equation?
A
> sandbox sounds interesting though I wonder if some may prefer just to
go
> for
> it?  I have no opinion on this either way but I feel very strongly
that
> the
> more people exchange their experiences, the better informed others
will
> be.
> No project is directly transferrable but lessons learnt certainly are.
>
> As for twitter specifically, I don't use it as I don't want to tell
people
> what I am doing every few moments (though it is all extremely
interesting
> of
> course) nor do I wish to know what others are doing.  However would
some
> event at a museum be well-served with a twitter-esque application?
>  Perhaps
> it would.  Therefore such things can also help aid creative problem
> solving
> at a relatively negligible cost.
>
> And I wonder where the prejudice against the Siliconites comes from?
If
> we
> look within our own broad community, we all do and think of things in
> different ways, we wouldn't all want to be thought of in the same way,
> surely?  Can we ever say we've reached the 'wrong' audience when doing
> stuff
> on the web?
>
> Tehmina
>
> On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Tehmina,
> >
> > Thanks for a very interesting and balanced post. I think you are
correct
> -
> > there is an element of exploration involved here, which is obviously
an
> > important part of innovation. My concern with these things has
always
> been
> > the risk of a large number of museums investing in basically
> unsustainable
> > services which do little to support their core mission.
> >
> > On the subject of Twitter, you ask which museum wouldn't want the
brief
> > attention of a million people. Firstly, it is highly unlikely that
of
> this
> > million claimed users, more than a couple of tens of thousands are
> *really*
> > active users (it's the same issue with Second Life's claimed
> population).
> > This really is a niche market, and my answer would be that even a
> million
> > brief viewers is of little use at all if it's the *wrong* million,
or if
> our
> > information is lost in a torrent of in-jokes and Silicon Valley
startup
> > party invites.
> >
> > We need to think hard about which problems we are going to try and
> solve,
> > and then identify the best technologies to do so. Imagine a world in
> which
> > Twitter did not exist (give it a couple of years...) would you
really
> invent
> > a constantly-updated trivia machine as the best way of communicating
> with
> > museum audiences?
> >
> > I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't.
> >
> > Which takes us back to your original proposition - how do museums
find
> the
> > time and money to play with innovative/speculative services, even
where
> > these don't necessarily resolve to long-term changes in the way we
do
> > things? I know that Eduserv were looking at investing in a
> sandbox/incubator
> > in which museums could muck about with stuff. I think there is real
> > potential in having a safe 'playground' in which to test these
> propositions
> > before they become live services. Is this something which people
would
> find
> > appealing?
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick Poole
> > Chief Executive
> > MDA
> >
> > www.mda.org.uk
> > www.collectionslink.org.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > Tel:  01223 316028
> > Fax: 01223 364658
> >
> > MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565
> > Reg. Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of
> > Tehmina Goskar
> > Sent: 27 March 2008 10:23
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Subject: Re: The speculative aspect of using Web 2 [was: British
Postal
> > Museum & Archive Wiki]
> >
> > There is also, of course, the speculative aspect of using web 2
methods
> to
> > either solicit user response or get them to create information for
you
> or
> > spread your information elsewhere.  As both Mike and Nick note,
every
> > organisation and project has specific needs and aims and these are
the
> > things that should come first.  However I wonder if many
organisations
> big
> > and small are using social networking tools and related applications
in
> a
> > speculative way - to see what happens.  This may result in
> 'interactions'
> > far beyond expectations or more modest ones but certainly quite
often
> > unexpected ones.
> >
> > Many of us who have used flickr, for example, have done so with a
desire
> > simply to share information with no specific view on _who_ we should
> share
> > these things with.  As an individual, I have done the same and have
been
> > quite surprised at some of the interest in my photographs, e.g. for
a
> > southern American recipe book, for a citizenship website, for an
> > alternative
> > health documentary, for a popular archaeological textbook... some
have
> > also
> > been shared on enthusiasts websites including one on manhole covers.
I
> > did
> > not seek any of these outcomes - and certainly did not expect
> > them.  Museums
> > and heritage organisations who do the same will likewise not always
know
> > how
> > such things will turn out.
> >
> > A propos the previous post on the critique of apps such as twitter,
a
> > million people may not be a big number for Oracle or Cisco but which
> > museum
> > online or otherwise would not want a million people's attention,
however
> > brief, on their collections and information?  The technology is also
> > reciprocal.  It's not all about what our audiences will get out of
it
> but
> > what _we_ can get out of it too.
> >
> > There is, for sure, a horses for courses basic rule to using web
> > applications to increase awareness of your organisation and its
> > information
> > but there is also a speculative aspect which, it seems to me, is
> important
> > -
> > there is also an element of this to putting on temporary exhibitions
-
> it
> > is
> > not always clear who will be interested in them and results can
> sometimes
> > be
> > surprising.  How you weigh up this speculation against time and
resource
> > costs is a more difficult matter to resolve.  The choice just needs
to
> be
> > well-informed.
> >
> > Tehmina
> >
> >
> >
> > On 27/03/2008, Nick Poole <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rhiannon,
> > >
> > > Many thanks for your email about the BPMA Wiki. I would be really
> > > interested to know more about why the BPMA took the decision to
> > implement a
> > > Wiki. Is it something your online audience have been requesting?
Is
> > there a
> > > specific target demographic for whom a Wiki is their preferred
form of
> > > interaction?
> > >
> > > The reason I ask is because of your comment about taking time to
get
> > > people on there. Of course, this may simply be the inertia faced
by
> any
> > > fledgling service, but at the same time I am not sure whether this
is
> > > central to your mission or an incidental add-on.
> > >
> > > Not to be too negative about things, but (bearing in mind the
recent
> > > exchange between Frankie and Mike) I remain sceptical about the
> > > appropriateness of models like social networking and participative
> media
> > to
> > > the delivery of museums online. As Mike notes, there's no hard and
> fast
> > rule
> > > - it's appropriate when it's appropriate - but I'd be really
> interested
> > to
> > > know whether this is a case of 'because we can' or whether there
is a
> > > genuine audience/marketing driver behind this thing.
> > >
> > > Similarly, I'd be very interested to know more about the outcomes
of
> > your
> > > dissertation - not just from a quantitative point of view (how
many
> > museums
> > > are doing this), but also from a qualitative one (of those
museums,
> how
> > may
> > > are doing it well, and how many will still be an actively
supported
> > resource
> > > in 2 years time).
> > >
> > > Of course, I see the potential of crowdsourcing interpretation and
> > > selection, and the Wiki model certainly offers a potential channel
for
> > > people to get at the museums back-end systems, but I think we run
the
> > risk
> > > of overlooking the very specific psychology and demographics of
User
> > > Generated Content, and regarding it as something appropriate for a
> > > generalist audience.
> > >
> > > Any further info gratefully received!
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nick Poole
> > > Chief Executive
> > > MDA
> > >
> > > www.mda.org.uk
> > > www.collectionslink.org.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tel:  01223 316028
> > > Fax: 01223 364658
> > >
> > > MDA (Europe) Ltd: Company Registration No: 1300565
> > > Reg. Office: 22 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1JP.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of
> > > Rhiannon Looseley
> > > Sent: 26 March 2008 17:43
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: British Postal Museum & Archive Wiki
> > >
> > > Dear all
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought some of you might be interested in hearing about the new
> > > British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA) Wiki:
> > > www.postalheritage.org.uk/wiki.  It's based on Zwiki technology
which
> is
> > > Zope/Plone developers' answer to Wiki technology.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It's a bit of an experiment and at the moment, unsurprisingly,
it's
> > > taking a bit of time to get people on there.  I've started a few
> 'seeds'
> > > to get people started.  At the bottom of this email is an example
of
> the
> > > email we sent out to our E-Newsletter mailing list to try and
> encourage
> > > people to contribute.  It gives you an example of some of the
seeds
> > > we're using at the moment.  We've created similar flyers and
> newsletter
> > > articles as well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would be interested in hearing any suggestions others might have
on
> > > topics we could use to get people started and also experiences of
> > > building up a community like this.  I'm particularly keen to find
ways
> > > of making the most of Wikis' potential for collaborative work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also if you're interested, I'm currently writing my MA in Museum
> Studies
> > > Dissertation on Museum Wikis, with ours as a case study.  I'm
blogging
> > > about my progress at: http://rhiannonlooseley.blogspot.com if
anyone
> is
> > > interested in following my progress.  I'd welcome any comments
along
> the
> > > way (please let me know if you specifically don't want me to quote
> your
> > > comments, either on my blog, or by email, in my dissertation).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Rhiannon Looseley
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Rhiannon Looseley
> > >
> > > Web Officer
> > >
> > > Tel: 020 7239 2588
> > >
> > > Fax: 020 7239 2576
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > > The British Postal Museum & Archive (BPMA)
> > >
> > > Freeling House, Phoenix Place, London WC1X 0DL
> > >
> > > www.postalheritage.org.uk <http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > British postal communications helped to shape the modern world.
The
> > > British Postal Museum & Archive illuminates the lives of people in
the
> > > Post Office, the messages carried by Royal Mail, the history we
all
> > > share. Our history through the post.
> > >
> > > The BPMA is the public identity of the Postal Heritage Trust.
> > >
> > > Registered as a charity in England and Wales.
> > > Registered Charity Number 1102360
> > > Company Number 4896056
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Family History Research
> > >
> > >
> > > Researching your postal ancestors? Want to share what you've
> discovered
> > > with a wider audience? Why not use the Wiki to tell others about
your
> > > research?
> > >
> > > Use the Wiki Family history research
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE7Q6963B7UOK4YSTV>
> > > page to get started.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Postal History
> > >
> > >
> > > Do you know a lot about a certain aspect of postal history? Have
you
> > > uncovered a particularly interesting story in our archive? Why not
> tell
> > > us more about them on the Wiki?
> > >
> > > Use the Wiki Postal history
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEYMPO78SIJ7MY0JO3>
> > > page to get started.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Working with our collections
> > >
> > >
> > > Did you/do you work for the Post Office? Do you recognise some of
the
> > > objects and documents in our Collections section
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE0QP7O71MVGI0PIQW>
> ?
> > > Why not tell us about what it was/is like to work with them?
> > >
> > > Use the Wiki Working with our collections
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OEBHDGUI0DHZ2L69O7>
> > > page to get started.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Working for the Post Office
> > >
> > >
> > > Did you/do you work for the Post Office or Royal Mail? Tell us
about
> > > your experiences on the Wiki.
> > >
> > > What do you think has changed over the years? We'd be interested
to
> hear
> > > what you think.
> > >
> > > Use the Wiki Working for the Post Office
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OECZXA1DOTRLJIRJAD>
> > > to get started.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Letter boxes
> > >
> > >
> > > Do you have a digital image of a particularly interesting letter
box?
> > > Why not upload your image to the Wiki and tell us more about it.
> > >
> > > Is there a letter box near you that you would like to know more
about?
> > > Maybe someone else out there can help you with your query. You
could
> > > post a question on the Wiki.
> > >
> > > Use the Wiki Letter boxes
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OE789FM2I4ZDYIV491>
> > > page to get started.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > War Memorials in the Post Office
> > >
> > >
> > > Have you noticed a War Memorial in your local Post Office? Please
help
> > > us compile our database of Post Office War Memorials.
> > >
> > > Use our Wiki War Memorials in the Post Office
> > >
<http://www.massmailer.co.uk/go.php?RKKH2J8JU8N459OETUG225U1E5M98XFF>
> > > page to get started.
> > >
> > >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ------
> > >
> > >
> > > **************************************************
> > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,
visit
> > the
> > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> > > **************************************************
> > >
> > > **************************************************
> > > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,
visit
> > the
> > > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> > > **************************************************
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia
> > Museum Specialist
> > Historian
> >
> > **************************************************
> > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,
visit
> the
> > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> > **************************************************
> >
> > **************************************************
> > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list,
visit
> the
> > website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> > **************************************************
> >
>
>
>
> --
>  Tehmina Goskar, MA AMA
> [log in to unmask]
>
> Web Communication Development for Culture, Heritage and Academia
> Museum Specialist
> Historian
>
> **************************************************
> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
the
> website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
> **************************************************
>



-- 
________________________________________________

electronic museum

..thoughts on museums, the social web, innovation

w: http://www.electronicmuseum.org.uk
f: http://electronicmuseum.wordpress.com/feed
e: [log in to unmask]

**************************************************
For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit
the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
**************************************************

**************************************************
For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
**************************************************