I don't think that you are entirely representing the contents of the Law
Commission Report accurately. Nobody in this thread (I think) has
actually disputed that an email with a typed name is potentially capable
of satisfying in many circumstances a digital signature requirement. The
Law Commission publication says that. It also says that "we are aware
that our views in relation to electronic signatures are not universally
accepted: others believe that a signature requires there to be a
physical memorial. ... we acknowledge the difficulties that a lack of a
consensus on this issue presents...".
So I've no doubt the then Patent Office were fully aware of the Law
Commission's not universally accepted or unchallengeable views. I'm sure
the PO also read the detailed provisions of the Electronic Signatures
Directive which is highly relevant as well.
Laurence
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Litterick
Sent: 15 February 2008 12:00
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Electronic interlending
Thanks for the background.
I would conclude that the comment was inadequately considered, certainly
arguable and actually wrong. Particularly as PGP type digital signatures
have not caught on, mainly because, I guess, the passing of time
suggests that they are not necessary in order to make valid contracts by
email. People have accepted the Law Commission view. I have never seen
anything in a copyright licensing context that would require anything
other than normal standards of signing, as outlined by Matt Martin.
The CILIP article that reports back on the Patent Office (now UKIPO)
meeting
(http://www.cilip.org.uk/policyadvocacy/copyright/advice/e-signatures.ht
m)
also says:
"The signature, therefore, would have to clearly identify the individual
and must not easily be used by others. The Patent Office says that
deciding what form of e-signature fulfils these criteria is a matter for
experts in the area."
I'd suggest that the Law Commission are suitable experts. I wonder if
the Patent Office had fully considered the LC conclusions, published
shortly before the 2002 meeting, at the time? Anyway, there's been a lot
of digital custom and practice established in the cyber decades since
2002.
Besides, let's have some common sense. Why go to great lengths to
minimise the slight chance of forgery when an untrue declaration is much
simpler and vastly more likely?
In 2008 putting unnecessary hurdles in the way of digital delivery can't
be the way to go.
Regards
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman
www.iansyst.co.uk
www.dyslexic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 February 2008 08:39
To: Ian Litterick
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Electronic interlending
This was at a meeting between representatives of LACA (Libraries and
Archives Copyright Alliance) and officials of UKIPO to discuss potential
future changes to copyright law - took place about two years ago. The
comment was made by the most senior UKIPO person present. As Laurence
Bebbington has pointed out, UKIPO has not published any advice on the
matter.
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Litterick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 14 February 2008 18:12
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Electronic interlending
UKIPO reference please?
Thanks in Anticipation.
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman
www.iansyst.co.uk
www.dyslexic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: 14 February 2008 10:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LIS-LINK] Electronic interlending
Unfortunately that is not the reading of the UK Intellectual Property
Office (which is responsible for the Copyright Act) which states in its
opinion you must use encrypted e mails with true digital signatures to
be acceptable.
The fact of the matter is that there isn't agreement amount this matter
and no case law. I am frankly less concerned about the concept of an e
mail KILL request being valid or not than with the idea of delivery of
items electronically, which is seriously risky.
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matthew Martin
Sent: 14 February 2008 09:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Electronic interlending
Good Morning All,
I've been following the discussion with some interest and thought I'd
share links to the full text of the articles being discussed.
Electronic Communications Act 2000 (Section 7):
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000007_en_1
Law Commission report on Electronic Signatures in relation to the ECA
2000 (Section 3) http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/docs/e-commerce.pdf
My reading of them is that typing your name into an email would be a
valid signature, as would clicking a button on a web application that
had authenticated you as a user.
Matt Martin,
Technical Analyst - Web Services Team
University of Birmingham
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: 14 February 2008 08:15
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Electronic interlending
Put simply, no. With an ordinary e mail system, I could wander into
someone else's office, see their computer is on and is set to e mail,
and send an e mail purporting to come from that individual. In contrast,
something like PGP requires you in addition to put in a key, which you
will not know - the message won't get sent without that key. That's why
ordinary e mail is not accepted as a signature.
Only if you have a system which prevents a third party sending an e mail
purporting to come from someone else when the e mail is set on does the
system pass the test.
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Litterick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 13 February 2008 17:32
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Electronic interlending
No, indeed, just sending an email isn't enough, but typing your name (or
initials) in it, according to the Law Commission as quoted in the
article, does make it a legal signature, if not a digital one.
"The Law Commission reasoned that statutes requiring signatures could be
satisfied in most cases by a functional test: whether the conduct of the
would-be signatory indicates an authenticating intention to a reasonable
person."
No?
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman
www.iansyst.co.uk
www.dyslexic.com
www.re-adjust.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 13 February 2008 17:19
To: Ian Litterick
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Electronic interlending
yes, but the key phrase is "digital signature" which is as defined in
the Electronic Communications Act. Just sending an e mail is not a
"digital signature".
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Litterick
Sent: 13 February 2008 17:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Electronic interlending
My understanding was that it was much easier to form a legal contract
with an email than that:
"Digital signatures, scanned manuscript signatures, typing one's name
(or initials), and clicking on a website button are, in our view, all
methods of signature which are generally capable of satisfying a
statutory signature requirement," wrote the Law Commission.
Hence our disclaimer (see below).
More detailed discussion at
http://www.out-law.com/page-6839
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman
www.iansyst.co.uk
www.dyslexic.com
www.re-adjust.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: 13 February 2008 15:05
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LIS-LINK] Electronic interlending
ID and password alone is not enough. The e mail system must have a
high level of authentication and encryption along the lines of PGP
(Pretty Good Privacy) to be legally considered "signed". It's all in
Clause 7 of the Electronic Communications Act 2000. Check with your
technical staff if the e mail system abides by the requirements of that
Clause, but my understanding is that only those ultra secure e mail
systems used in Government and some private sector firms qualify.
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: O'Leary, Simon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 13 February 2008 15:00
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Electronic interlending
Dear Charles,
Does that still apply if users have to use a secure individual login and
PIN to get to a web form used for ordering an ILL?
Many thanks,
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: 13 February 2008 14:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Electronic interlending
Sorry to be a party pooper, but....current e mail systems in use in
Universities are not secure enough to allow their use for ordering ILLs.
Personal handwritten signatures should be used. In law, a standard e
mail is not considered to be "signed", and therefore a library
fulfilling an ILL request received in such a way is in the same position
as one fulfilling a request on a form which has not been signed, i.e.,
working outside library privilege.
There are also potential copyright issues in delivering copies in
electronic form - they should only be used on a stand alone
non-networked PC.
Publishers are very hot on this topic and I strongly advise not going
down this route unless you are fully satisfied that all copyright and
related issues are addressed.
Charles
Professor Charles Oppenheim
Head
Department of Information Science
Loughborough University
Loughborough
Leics LE11 3TU
Tel 01509-223065
Fax 01509 223053
e mail [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: A general Library and Information Science list for news and
discussion. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: 13 February 2008 11:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Electronic interlending
Dear colleagues,
We are planning a move to e-delivery of articles and wondered how other
institutions managed the electronic signature element.
Do you have some form of copyright declaration that students have to
tick or otherwise agree to, or do you just make them log in personally
in order to make the request?
Please reply off-list if you prefer, and I will summarise for the list.
Thanks,
Chris
--
Chris Smart
Calcutta House Library
London Metropolitan University
Old Castle Street
LONDON
E1 7NT
E-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel. 44 (0)20 7320 1186
Fax. 44 (0)20 7320 1177
Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo
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