Actually, that reminds, me, when I was working on Witchcraft Mag a lot of 
readers - modern Australian Witches - got really cross when I insinuated 
that they were atheistic, which they were. They didn't see that Witchcraft 
(modern non-initiatory Witchcraft, although stylistically derived from 
Wicca, which *does* have deities, the "God and Goddess" at minimum and full 
blown religious interaction at max) had anything to do with gods, belief, 
recriprocity...The "gods" of Witchcraft, apparently, were a way for women to 
love their periods, and for men to explore being gentle... Although in 
spells the gods might or might not be mentioned/incorporated in the text, my 
impression was, for those readers, that they didn't particularly believe in 
or care about deities - although these same people *would* also identify as 
"Pagans". (But without deities... what is a Pagan???)

So... what about non-Wiccan-derived Witchcraft, as in pre-Witchcraft revival 
witchcraft (not Robert Cochrane Witchraft which I think is too like Wicca to 
be particularly "pre" revival)? Doesn't that usually incorporate deities or 
some other ritual-empowerer? Even cunning folk added "the Father Son and 
Holy Ghost"...

In British initiatory Wicca, well I'm sure I read it in Gardner or one of 
his students, the "magical power" comes from the Witch's body... so again... 
what do [modern witches] need deities for? To worship, to love?

But then again lots of Witches *are* very interactive with their deities. 
Are these Witches of a more (serious) Pagan bent?

Is it a case of (the simplistic I know) difference between "religion" versus 
"magic"? If one is primarily trying to cause change in accordance with your 
will... do you need to believe in or care about the gods?

.:shrug:.

~Caroline.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Waldron" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Deities


> Well for me its an area I find increasingly problematic and, indeed, I am 
> curious if one creates gods and goddesses as convenient why not simply do 
> the job yourself and why bother with terms like Pagan at all.  Given this 
> kind of approach is miles from historical paganism I find it difficult to 
> see how it should conceptually hold together at all in any meaningful way. 
> Indeed I tend to find it all tends to crumble in a Schlegelian way when 
> subjected to critique.  Especially with the odd juxtaposition of 
> tradition, pop culture and Chistian/Judaic loose versions of hermeticism 
> and gnosticism out of cosmological and cultural context.
> David
>
>
> Caroline Tully wrote:
>> Yes its actually an aetheistic approach to deities - you only exist 
>> because I/we believe in you. It's like Peter Pan's Tinkerbell fading away 
>> when all the children stopped believing in fairies. One wonders what the 
>> point in believing in deities actually is if they aren't really real. Is 
>> it like an externalisation of an aspect of one's inner self, blown up 
>> big, and then appealed to/commanded? Why not cut out the ritual and go do 
>> the job yourself?
>>  ~Caroline.
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* David Waldron <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:07 AM
>>     *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Lovecraft- was A question
>>     about Ganesh
>>
>>     There seems to be this underlying ideology here that belief
>>     creates power and deities are somehow akin to a Tulpa.  I am not
>>     really sure how that plays out but if you follow it then you can
>>     invest abstract cultural references with magical/divine energy in
>>     theory.  Rather terry Pratchetts Small Gods in a way.   Its a
>>     different take to the existent Gods of history or the
>>     psychologising of deities I've usually come across.  Still I
>>     wonder, given the discussion of replacing Hercules or Aries with
>>     Chuck Norris, if Chuck Norris is prayed to and invoked will he get
>>     super powers?   ;-)   Well someone before came up with the line of
>>     using Peter Griffin and Lois as incarnation of the God and Goddess
>>     and they get super powers all the time. :-P
>>     David
>>
>>
>>
>>     Caroline Tully wrote:
>>>     >>What real value (or power, or whatever other qualifier you care
>>>     to attribute) can something truly be said to have if no one knows
>>>     it's there,<<
>>>      That's a bit human-centric isn't it? What about things we will
>>>     never see, things at the bottom of the sea like a big sea
>>>     volcano, or in outer space like say, black holes, they have power
>>>     and we might not know they are there. Or do you mean some kind of
>>>     other sort of "power"?
>>>      ~Caroline.
>>
>