I'll give a quick response to everyone, so we can get back to more
academic matters.

I don't want to drag anyone else into this, but the source I talked to
regarding these cases is not an alarmist and has done some first-hand
investigation on matters like this.  I'm not certain as to whether this
particular information was obtained first hand.

I'm sure that the Frosts are charming people, that they sometimes say
things that they might not mean, that they might have been reflecting
the spirit of the times, and that they might follow the Trickster
archetype.  Still, the Trickster is not exactly the most harmless
individual.  Even if no abuse is linked to the Frosts' writings, the
failure to clearly repudiate these teachings could lead to trouble down
the road.

Thanks,

Dan Harms
Coordinator of Instruction Librarian
SUNY Cortland Memorial Library
P. O. Box 2000
Cortland, NY  13045
(607) 753-4042

-----Original Message-----
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Harry Roth
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] satanic_calendar ?

Daniel Harms wrote:
> 
> Regarding the Frosts - their beliefs are certainly outside the norm
for 
> Wicca.  The Frosts themselves, however, are treated by many as Pagan 
> elders, and often turn up at various pagan events and the like.

They also get their invitations to speak 
revoked, as happened recently, although 
that was on account of their being 
anti-gay. I think many people have not 
even heard of this stance of theirs, 
particularly because the greatest amount 
of its expression happened in 1972, 
before a lot of them were even born.

One thing about the book is that it was 
written at a time when there was no 
public discussion of child molestation. 
It was not recognized in 1972 that 
families were the primary location of 
the sexual abuse of children. Also, the 
sexual revolution was still going on, 
and one of the things that I recall 
being relatively widely discussed was 
the fact that children have sexuality. 
This was a totally new idea, and many 
parents that I knew encouraged sexual 
play among children, openness with 
children about sexuality, adults being 
naked with children, and so forth. It 
also went farther than that. I remember 
an ultra-left friend of mine arguing 
that because children do have sexuality, 
it was okay for an adult to have sex 
with a child. He considered that to deny 
these kind of relationships was 
oppressive to the child. He never 
actually had sex with a child and said 
he was not attracted to them, so he 
wasn't defending his own personal 
inclinations. Far from being a Pagan or 
Satanist, he was a strict atheist and a 
Trotskyist, which was the wellspring of 
this idea for him (RSL? I can't quite 
remember). His perspective on this issue 
was not unique to him by any means.

I asked a friend last night who has been 
very active in Paganism and Wicca for 
many years whether she knew of anyone 
who had done what the Frosts recommended 
re children. She knew of only one person 
who had taken them seriously at all, and 
this individual had taken a course 
through their School because at that 
time there was very little choice. This 
person had been made a Third Degree by 
someone from their organization coming 
out and having sex with them. But this 
was between consenting adults. She 
didn't know anyone who put the book's 
recommendations re children into action. 
Not even discussions about it. Nor have 
I in 8 years of being in the business 
ever heard any discussion of it being 
practiced by anyone. Of course, that is 
just anecdotal evidence. But so are 
posts on the Internet from someone named 
Arthur, as was offered as evidence for 
ritual abuse.

Harry Roth