Yes, Colleen Rosenfield, the authentic Spenserian wobble, as on as (= als, 
as in allegory) generally: "So oft as...When as...Such oddes...As that...Me 
seemes...."

On Redcrosse's perfection, see AnFQ 278-80:  "At the House of Holiness 
Redcrosse is restored to health and wholness … The knight grows to a 
‘perfection of all heauenly grace’(I.x.21)."  RC’s holiness is wholeness, 
and wholeness is being made perfect: "Thus RC becomes ‘perfect in charity’ 
(I.x.45)….  He is healed by Patience; the Christian is enjoined to ‘let 
Patience haue her perficte worke, that ye may be perfite and entire, 
lackyning nothing’ (James 1:4)."  Some of this kind of Christian holiness is 
achieved by otherworldliness (rejection of the world)—hence the (fanciful)) 
derivation by Luther of Greek hagios from a-geos:  "without earth."

The thing that perfects the human being is grace, which is a perfecting 
causality from God.  Its/God’s instruments are Christ, Christ's sacrifice, 
the sacraments, and the infused theological virtues.  The gift of grace was 
restored to mankind by Christ’s sacrifice, which heals (restoratively) the 
wounds of humankind’s fallen nature.  Grace is itself a preternatural gift, 
like Adam’s original immortality.

See Aquinas, Sum.Theol. Part I of 2nd Part:

Question 112. The cause of grace
  
1.	Is God alone the efficient cause of grace?
2.	Is any disposition towards grace needed on the part of the recipient, by 
an act of free-will?
3.	Can such a disposition make grace follow of necessity?
4.	Is grace equal in all?
5.	May anyone know that he has grace?

Article 1. Whether God alone is the cause of grace?
Objection 1. It would seem that God alone is not the cause of grace. For it 
is written (John 1:17): "Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Now, by the 
name of Jesus Christ is understood not merely the Divine Nature assuming, 
but the created nature assumed. Therefore a creature may be the cause of 
grace.

Objection 2. Further, there is this difference between the sacraments of the 
New Law and those of the Old, that the sacraments of the New Law cause 
grace, whereas the sacraments of the Old Law merely signify it. Now the 
sacraments of the New Law are certain visible elements. Therefore God is not 
the only cause of grace.

Objection 3. Further, according to Dionysius (Coel. Hier. iii, iv, vii, 
viii), "Angels cleanse, enlighten, and perfect both lesser angels and men." 
Now the rational creature is cleansed, enlightened, and perfected by grace. 
Therefore God is not the only cause of grace.

On the contrary, It is written (Psalm 83:12): "The Lord will give grace and 
glory."

I answer that, Nothing can act beyond its species, since the cause must 
always be more powerful than its effect. Now the gift of grace surpasses 
every capability of created nature, since it is nothing short of a partaking 
of the Divine Nature, which exceeds every other nature. And thus it is 
impossible that any creature should cause grace. For it is as necessary that 
God alone should deify, bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a 
participated likeness, as it is impossible that anything save fire should 
enkindle.
  …
Reply to Objection 2. As in the person of Christ the humanity causes our 
salvation by grace, the Divine power being the principal agent, so likewise 
in the sacraments of the New Law, which are derived from Christ, grace is 
instrumentally caused by the sacraments, and principally by the power of the 
Holy Ghost working in the sacraments, according to John 3:5: "Unless a man 
be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom 
of God."

Reply to Objection 3. Angels cleanse, enlighten, and perfect angels or men, 
by instruction, and not by justifying them through grace. Hence Dionysius 
says (Coel. Hier. vii) that "this cleansing and enlightenment and perfecting 
is nothing else than the assumption of Divine knowledge."
…

Regarding the "such" in such perfection, see Aquinas a little further in the 
same Question 112:

Article 5. Whether man can know that he has grace?

Objection 1. It would seem that man can know that he has grace. For grace by 
its physical reality is in the soul. Now the soul has most certain knowledge 
of those things that are in it by their physical reality, as appears from 
Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xii, 31). Hence grace may be known most certainly by 
one who has grace.
…

Objection 4. Further, the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 2:12): "Now we have 
received not the Spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that 
we may know the things that are given us from God." Now grace is God's first 
gift. Hence, the man who receives grace by the Holy Spirit, by the same Holy 
Spirit knows the grace given to him.

Objection 5. Further, it was said by the Lord to Abraham (Genesis 22:12): 
"Now I know that thou fearest God," i.e. "I have made thee know." Now He is 
speaking there of chaste fear, which is not apart from grace. Hence a man 
may know that he has grace.

On the contrary, It is written (Ecclesiastes 9:1): "Man knoweth not whether 
he be worthy of love or hatred." Now sanctifying grace maketh a man worthy 
of God's love. Therefore no one can know whether he has sanctifying grace.

I answer that, …
Secondly, a man may, of himself, know something, and with certainty; and in 
this way no one can know that he has grace. …

Thirdly, things are known conjecturally by signs; and thus anyone may know 
he has grace, when he is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising 
worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin. 
And thus it is written (Apocalypse 2:17): "To him that overcometh I will 
give the hidden manna . . . which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it," 
because whoever receives it knows, by experiencing a certain sweetness, 
which he who does not receive it, does not experience. Yet this knowledge is 
imperfect; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 4:4): "I am not conscious 
to myself of anything, yet am I not hereby justified," since, according to 
Psalm 18:13: "Who can understand sins? From my secret ones cleanse me, O 
Lord, and from those of others spare Thy servant."
…  END OF QUOTES FROM SUMMA THEOL.

To conclude:  We have a certain assurance of the state of grace by signs 
like those at the House of Holinesse: "Anyone may know he has grace, when he 
is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising worldly things, and is 
not conscious of any mortal sin." (Aquinas, Summa I 11,112,5, ad 3),  See 
Matt. 19:21:  "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that…".  The Christian 
with Redcrosse waits upon the wholnesss of Ephesians 4:12:  i.e., for that 
gift of "For the perfecting of the saints … Till we all come in the unity of 
the faith … unto a perfect man," in order that with Paul hoping for the 
Colossians of Col. 4:12 we "may stand perfect and complete."  But he is not 
entirely there.  For "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not 
one" (Rom. 3:10), and we are all under sin (Rom. 3:9), and have come short 
of the glory of god (vs. 23).  "Such perfection" as Redcrosse experiences, 
excludes, for the nonce, for example, Adam’s original immortality, or a 
totally perfected revelation of his salvation.


On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:49:43 -0800
  Colleen Rosenfeld <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I am intrigued by Jon Quitslund's attention to
> perfection’s “such” – particularly, that it first
> appears to be an "intensifying modifier" but becomes a
> "qualifier" with the introduction of a result clause. 
> I’ve been puzzling over a similarly ambiguous
> construction:
> 
> So oft as I with state of present time,
> The image of the antique world compare,
> When as mans age was in his freshest prime,
> And the first blossome of faire vertue bare,
> Such oddes I finde twixt those, and these which are,
> As that, through long continuance of his course,
> Me seemes the world is runne quite out of square,
>From the first point of his appointed sourse,
> And being once amisse growes daily wourse and wourse.
> (Proem, 1, Book V).
> 
> Here, “Such” first appears to simply modify “oddes” –
> it answers the sentence’s opening clause and offers
> syntactical closure at a familiar resting place. The
> effect is that we expect "As that" to introduce a
> simile rather than a result clause... (an expectation
> also raised and deferred with "When as").  Several
> moves collaborate with the ambiguous "Such" to
> generate this expectation and ensuing confusion (the
> steady succession of demonstrative pronouns, those,
> these, that, the fact that "me seemes" is
> syntactically unbound from a sentence that requires
> the display of its connective tissue).  The capacity
> of "Such" to act as either modifier or qualifier means
> that the sentence could - but does not - end at the
> close of the medial couplet, thus missing – like our
> wayward sphere - its own "first point."
> 
> 
> Colleen Rosenfeld
> 
> --- Harry Berger Jr <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> I don't know why these comments put me in mind of
>> Carol Kaske's great  
>> study of correctio, but they do. In the House of
>> Holinesse we're  
>> looking at a not so "prety Epanorthosis" that seems
>> to me to amount to  
>> disavowal in the specific sense given that term by
>> Richard Halpern in  
>> The Underside of Innocence.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 7, 2008, at 12:13 PM, David L. Miller wrote:
>> 
>> > That is very astute.  I'd add that because the
>> moment is just what
>> > Marshall says, it also returns RC to the moment of
>> his near-suicide in
>> > the Cave of Despair.  As Harry Berger long ago
>> argued (his essay from
>> > the 60s on Book I is still amazing), RC throughout
>> Book I tends to  
>> > move
>> > "forward still," replaying moments in just this
>> way.  Of course this
>> > time there's a difference . . .
>> >
>> >>>> [log in to unmask] 1/7/2008 12:38 PM >>>
>> > One can read it with a certain irony.  The stage
>> he has reached in
>> > terms
>> > of the steps to regeneration is a conviction of
>> sin. If this is not
>> > followed by or accompanied by a conviction of
>> divine mercy, he will
>> > succumb to despair.  RC does not reach,
>> immediately, the perfection of
>> >
>> > all heavenly grace, but rather 'such perfection'
>> that he despises the
>> > world and loathes mortal life. Such perfection is
>> mortally imperfect,
>> > because it leads to despair. He will only reach
>> 'perfection' when gets
>> >
>> > past the expectation of perfection such that he
>> cannot accept life  
>> > in a
>> >
>> > fallen world by understanding that the godly
>> vision of perfection must
>> >
>> > be tempered with mercy. The 'perfected' state in
>> the passage is a
>> > response to teachings of faith unmoderated by the
>> internal movements  
>> > of
>> >
>> > mercy. He is seeing the world as God might have
>> seen it, had God not
>> > included mercy for its failings within the scheme
>> of perfection. Faith
>> >
>> > in the truth of the word is dangerously incomplete
>> without the
>> > accompanying movement of the indwelling spirit in
>> the heart.
>> >
>> > Others will shame me with more scholarly
>> responses, but, for now, this
>> >
>> > is how I read it.
>> >
>> > James Broaddus wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Could someone provide help with the phrase, "such
>> perfection of all
>> >> heuenly grace," which describes that to which
>> Redcrosse "grew" in
>> >> response to Fidelia's teaching.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The faithfull knight now grew in litle space,
>> >>
>> >>  By hearing her, and by her sisters lore,
>> >>
>> >>  To such perfection of all heuenly grace;
>> >>
>> >>  That wretched world he gan for to abhore,
>> >>
>> >>  And mortall life gan loath, as thing forlore,
>> >>
>> >>  Greeud with remembrance of his wicked wayes,
>> >>
>> >>  And prickt with anguish of his sinnes so sore,
>> >>
>> >>  That he desirde, to end his wretched dayes:
>> >>
>> >> So much the dart of sinfull guilt the soule
>> dismayes. (x.21)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I believe Hamilton's annotation describes
>> Redcrosse's spiritual state
>> >
>> >> at that moment: "That the knight's *perfection*
>> is indicated by a
>> >> desire to take his own life . . . marks the first
>> stage of his
>> >> regeneration." But, it seems to me, that
>> "perfection," either in the
>> >
>> >> modern sense of flawlessess, or in the older
>> sense of maturation,
>> >> especially in the phrase, "such perfection of all
>> heuenly grace,"
>> >> describes something more than that which would
>> mark a beginning
>> > stage.
>> >> This is so even if "such" is taken to modify
>> "perfection of all
>> >> heuenly grace" so that the phrase can means
>> something less perfect
>> >> than the "heuenly grace" into which the glorified
>> body is received.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The stanza reads more easily if "such perfection
>> of all heuenly
>> > grace"
>> >> is something about which Redcrosse only learns.
>> But Spenser said
>> > "grew."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jim Broaddus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > Marshall Grossman
>> > Professor of English
>> > University of Maryland
>> > College Park, MD 20895
>> >
>> > 301-405-9651
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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