YES.
It was Joe who explained the relevance of this ditty to Deconstruction and
all discussions of deconstruction within English departments.
Here's Joe's definition:
Deconstruction: The L'espacement of the
Aufhebung that ravishes -- under a "false" appearance -- absence that --
tourjours deja perdu -- re-presents itself as the copula between
Being and Becoming.
This definition is, of course, post-festum.
Joe's post-festum definition below. Of just the first five words!
I recorded it:
"This here definition, Joe, begins with the really nice mockery of a certain
copula --
and is really what is required. Off we would go to Nietzsche for the
earnest joke that is Aufbehung -- a sly hint at often hung --
a quick glance at the crucifixion then quickly back to the supplement
-- the fine excess -- of the two "thes" -- the sturdy Anglo-Saxon "the"
and its shield wall and the French "L" -- the woman -- the Norman invader
that supplements the "the" (we are talking about the Norman invasion
here -- Hastings -- the beginning of English) that -- I say --
supplements the "the" but... actually forces it out -- the point of
"espacement" -- so now the suspicion that what is really meant
is Lebensraum and so a gulf is opened between the French and the
German -- a little WW1 -- an abyss but also a trench and who WHO
charges across the no-man's land but the doughty English possessive
"of" and the most definite definite Austin-like definite article "the."
So here in five words that begin the definition we have a summary
of 1000 years of history and literature as well as a reflection
on the fate (or fatum) of the transcendental ego.
For the rest let look who will."
(You, of course, recognize that this last sentence of Joe's is from that
moment
in the Telemachus episode of "Ulysses" when Stephen masturbates while
gazing on the scrotum-tightening sea and realize that this sentence
gaily undercuts the definition and suspect that what is really meant
is dancing with Katey Keogh with her ass and garden and that the definition
is now placed somewhere near "he laid the dry snot picked from his
nostril on a ledge of rock, carefully." ( Seabedabbled and is, at least, of
a various color that is significant of a degree of vitality.)
On 11/1/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> another awesome quotable ejaculation. uh I mean
>
> KS
>
> On 01/11/2007, joe green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > But Joe, in any case, recovered from any disappointments in Naco and was
> > soon (he was a great fan of Joyce) bustling about the house singing:
> >
> > O Milly Bloom, you are my darling.
> > You are my looking glass from night to morning.
> > I'd rather have you without a farthing
> > Then Katey Keogh with her ass and garden
> >
> > Which I found very cheering and to the point.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/1/07, joe green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes! It's an old Texan saying with universal applicability! Here Joe
> > > applied it to me and trying to live it down I ended up leaving the
> army and
> > > spending some time in Las Vegas (ok, I was a romantic, wanted to
> parlay my
> > > last funds into a fortune and see for myself the English department at
> the
> > > University of Nevada, Las Vegas thinking "ah, what reptiles would
> creep in
> > > those halls" and hoping to fit in I would take up the study of the
> poetry of
> > > evil but I ended up fleeing when I was beaten by my ex mother in law
> in a
> > > laundromat. Those were the days.
> > >
> > > On 11/1/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > that's one killer of a ballad.
> > > > "You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on
> the
> > > > heel."
> > > >
> > > > I'm going to use that, next time I want to tell someone off
> > > >
> > > > KS
> > > >
> > > > On 31/10/2007, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > Yes, I love drama queens as a matter of fact. Is that so
> Awful? My
> > > > > favorite uncle -- Joe O'Brien -- was one and here's a true tale of
> one
> > > >
> > > > > adventure he had. Horrible verse some would say! Of course, they
> are
> > > > not
> > > > > from Nashville.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > *A Ballade of Uncle Joe*
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > > > >
> > > > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> > > > >
> > > > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm goin' to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My Uncle Joe O'Brien was Irish and was gay.
> > > > >
> > > > > Twenty years he had been sighing down in Long Beach near LA.
> > > > >
> > > > > Loved Bonanza and loved Sugarfoot. Loved all Louis L'Amour
> > > > >
> > > > > He knew Cheyenne was a lonely man. Knew he wanted more.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I was living in Huachuca. This was back in 71.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was a sad Palooka. My wife said "Goodbye, hon."
> > > > >
> > > > > Took off across Sonora. Left me busted flat.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can call me schnoorer. Paco was my cat.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One night I heard the telephone. It was my Uncle Joe.
> > > > >
> > > > > Asked him to come see me. He said "Well, I don't know."
> > > > >
> > > > > Told him "There's a simple reason you might want to come around.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's the tourist season and Clint Walker is in town!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "I'm on the first damn airplane!" cried Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > > > >
> > > > > Took a little cocaine so he'd feel alright flying.
> > > > >
> > > > > Drove down from Tucson in a yellow renter car.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dressed himself as Zorro. Then we went over to a bar.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The eyes of Arizona were upon as as we sashayed inside
> > > > >
> > > > > My uncle dressed as Zorro his shilleagh by his side.
> > > > >
> > > > > "A Sloe Gin Fizz" cried Uncle Joe "and a whiskey for my man."
> > > > >
> > > > > And turned to me said "Tell me, son. when will we see Cheyenne?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I looked up at my Uncle Joe all six foot eight of him
> > > > >
> > > > > And said "Cheyenne's not coming, Joe." Ah, my Uncle looked so
> grim!
> > > > >
> > > > > "My Rosalita's left me and I need your advice.
> > > > >
> > > > > I lied about Cheyenne, I fear." His eyes turned cold as ice.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "You've always been a fuckup, son, and I think it's getting worse.
> > > > >
> > > > > You could be so happy if you were polymorphously perverse.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I'll be frank with you, my man, and tell you how I feel:
> > > > >
> > > > > You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on
> the
> > > > heel.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You've always been an asshole yet I think you need another
> > > > >
> > > > > And that's what I would give you but for your dear old sainted
> > > > mother."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe had fought at Iwo. Fought the Japs like a machine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like something out of a Devo. A fighting gay Marine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Three drunken soldiers came up. One said, "Man, I hate your hat.
> > > > >
> > > > > My Uncle Joe he laid 'em low in thirty seconds flat.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The crowd fell back before us as Joe walked out to the car.
> > > > >
> > > > > Uncle Joe made just one remark: "I wish I had my B.A.R.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pulled down his Zorro hat and twitched his Zorro cape.
> > > > >
> > > > > Put in Giuseppe Verdi. Played that Eight-Track tape.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sang "Celeste Aida" as we went down the Bisbee road.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe felt just like Zorro. I felt just like Tom Joad.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > > > >
> > > > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> > > > >
> > > > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm goin to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/31/07, Patrick McManus < [log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look here I am the only low grade (very low grade) drama queen
> > > > around here
> > > > > > and it's me that gets to write the bad poetry
> > > > > > So you all stop trying to muscle in on my scene I can outbad you
> all
> > > > any
> > > > > > time and as for swans we won't go into that either
> > > > > > Love to you all be warned
> > > > > > Patrick aged silver surfer drama queener extraordinaire
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]]
> > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf Of joe green
> > > > > > Sent: 31 October 2007 02:14
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Manipulation (no longer Re: New at Sharp Sand)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why, no. One seeks simple justice. One wants to hold
> on.... One's
> > > > sense
> > > > > > of the ridiculous already satisfied!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > oh yeah, before I forget. I think you've been building up to
> this
> > > > so
> > > > > > > you could swan around like a low-grade drama queen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > > > I've missed nothing, Joe. I just dislike you, your manner
> and
> > > > your
> > > > > > > writing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Just in case you missed it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks, Andrew. I wonder what other poets, loved in youth,
> > > > flist
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > members have had to reevaluate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joe Green responded: None, I never liked bad poetry.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joe Green is quoted: "None, I never liked bad poetry."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote: So, you just write it?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, as you can see, the only decent thing to do is to ask
> for
> > > > an
> > > > > > > apology
> > > > > > > > > from Joe Duemer also.
> > > > > > > > > Or is he somehow justified?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If so, please inform the editors at Fulcrum and tell them
> to
> > > > cancel
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > 15
> > > > > > > > > pages of execrable verse in the next issue.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Or should I do it for you?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if JG gets to run poetryetc, I'm outahere.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Joe, would you like to run Poetryetc? I'll be glad to
> hand
> > > > you
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > keys
> > > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > get the hell out of town. Your relentless
> anti-academic,
> > > > > > > > > > anti-intellectual
> > > > > > > > > > > bullshit has finally just gotten me down. You win.
> Really,
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > yours.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > resent the list to make you owner -- just give me the
> > > > word. I
> > > > > > > mean,
> > > > > > > > > > you'd be
> > > > > > > > > > > great because you know everything already & if anyone
> has
> > > > any
> > > > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > can just ask you & that will settle the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Do you consider the reader's need to not read a
> > > > composition
> > > > > > > based on
> > > > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > > > you think the reader needs? Seems so very odd...
> and
> > > > seems
> > > > > > like
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > formula
> > > > > > > > > > > > for endless repetition of the same.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to have its origins in didactic poesy and
> seems
> > > > quite
> > > > > > 19th
> > > > > > > > > > century.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Almost schoolmarmish. Wordsworth began "The
> Prelude" as
> > > > an
> > > > > > > attempt to
> > > > > > > > > > > > justify his poetry -- why should anyone listen to
> > > > him?.... and
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > kept
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > revising it until he brought it to ruins. Thinking
> of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > reader had
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > to do with that. The first prelude wild and open to
> > > > > > > contradiction and
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > fully comprehended even by the poet. The revisions
> all
> > > > > > > occasioned by
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > didactic impulse with a sense of not having to
> > > > demonstrate
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > assumed
> > > > > > > > > > > > to have been shown.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I like Eliot's suggestion that a poem is judged by
> all
> > > > other
> > > > > > > poems --
> > > > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > poems are the readers in a sense. They are not
> troubled
> > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > theoretical
> > > > > > > > > > > > grounds immersed in what is quite secondary and of a
> > > > certain
> > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But I acknowledge that these ideas of how a poem is
> made
> > > > are
> > > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > general public and I suspect that they are created
> by
> > > > the
> > > > > > > workshop
> > > > > > > > > > > > mentality
> > > > > > > > > > > > and determined by the enabling conviction that one
> can
> > > > be
> > > > > > taught
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > write
> > > > > > > > > > > > poetry. And that many are qualified to do so!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, if you're on shaky theoretical ground then
> so
> > > > am I.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > > > > myself anticipating what I think of as my readers'
> > > > needs. I
> > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > > > > > things together in such a way that a reader will
> have
> > > > some
> > > > > > > reactions
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have others.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Martin Dolan < [log in to unmask]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the question of whether "a writer seeks to
> > > > manipulate a
> > > > > > > desired
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > audience", the question very much seems to be
> one of
> > > > > > > intention.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manipulation in this case definitely has
> > > > implications of
> > > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > obtain an advantage or an unfair outcome -
> > > > unfavourable
> > > > > > > intent.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we used a less value-laden description
> > > > (influence,
> > > > > > > perhaps), it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > strikes me that I - perhaps alone! - often set
> out
> > > > to
> > > > > > > influence
> > > > > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > through some of my poems, at least by evoking an
> > > > response.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > uneasy feeling that I'm on suspect theoretical
> > > > ground
> > > > > > here,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > hey, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't claim I'm successful in my intent.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh [probably, Roger, in which case everyone is
> > > > > > > 'sincere'...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Mark was talking, if I remember rightly,
> about
> > > > > > whether
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > not a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writer seeks to manipulate a desired audience.
> I
> > > > guess
> > > > > > > that's a
> > > > > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of intention, whether or not it actually
> works?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would tend to agree that we're always
> readers,
> > > > but
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > immediately begin to wonder if that's right,
> > > > too....
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My more serious point in that post had to do
> with
> > > > that
> > > > > > > question
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > craft, which as readers we can, I guess, only
> > > > intuit,
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > of a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sensibility constructed by all our (other)
> > > > reading....
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28-Oct-07, at 3:12 AM, Roger Day wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Outside v inside readings - isnt that some
> form
> > > > of
> > > > > > false
> > > > > > > > > > dichotomy?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Neither exists as we're only readers and we
> > > > impose our
> > > > > > > own
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> rose-coloured glasses on everything we read.
> I
> > > > thought
> > > > > > > we'd
> > > > > > > > > > > > excluded
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intentional fallacies?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Roger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/<
> http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E
> Murphy)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the first lesson, loss.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who hasn't tried to learn it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at the hands of wind or thieves?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jan Zwicky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [ sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > > > > [sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury
> > > > their
> > > > > > > sons."
> > > > > > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury
> their
> > > > sons."
> > > > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
> > > > sons."
> > > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.15/1101 - Release
> Date:
> > > > > > 31/10/2007
> > > > > > 10:06
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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