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POETRYETC  November 2007

POETRYETC November 2007

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Subject:

Re: Manipulation (no longer Re: New at Sharp Sand)

From:

joe green <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc: poetry and poetics

Date:

Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:12:50 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (502 lines)

Yes!  It's an old Texan saying with universal applicability!  Here Joe
applied it to me and trying to live it down I ended up leaving the army and
spending some time in Las Vegas (ok, I was a romantic, wanted to parlay my
last funds into a fortune and see for myself the English department at the
University of Nevada, Las Vegas thinking "ah, what reptiles would creep in
those halls" and hoping to fit in I would take up the study of the poetry of
evil but I ended up fleeing when I was beaten by my ex mother in law in a
laundromat.  Those were the days.

On 11/1/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> that's one killer of a ballad.
> "You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the
> heel."
>
> I'm going to use that, next time I want to tell someone off
>
> KS
>
> On 31/10/2007, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Yes, I love drama queens as a matter of fact.  Is that so Awful?  My
> > favorite uncle -- Joe O'Brien -- was one and here's a true tale of one
> > adventure he had.  Horrible verse some would say!  Of course, they are
> not
> > from Nashville.
> >
> >
> > *A Ballade of Uncle Joe*
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> >
> > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> >
> > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> >
> > I'm goin' to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> >
> >
> >
> > My Uncle Joe O'Brien was Irish and was gay.
> >
> > Twenty years he had been sighing down in Long Beach near LA.
> >
> > Loved Bonanza and loved Sugarfoot.  Loved all  Louis L'Amour
> >
> > He knew Cheyenne was a lonely man. Knew he wanted more.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was living in Huachuca.  This was back in 71.
> >
> > I was a sad Palooka.  My wife said "Goodbye, hon."
> >
> > Took off across Sonora.  Left me busted flat.
> >
> > You can call me schnoorer.  Paco was my cat.
> >
> >
> >
> > One night I heard the telephone.  It was my Uncle Joe.
> >
> > Asked him to come see me.  He said "Well, I don't know."
> >
> > Told him "There's a simple reason you might want to come around.
> >
> > It's the tourist season and Clint Walker is in town!
> >
> >
> >
> > "I'm on the first damn airplane!" cried Uncle Joe O'Brien
> >
> > Took a little cocaine so he'd feel alright flying.
> >
> > Drove down from Tucson in a yellow renter car.
> >
> > Dressed himself  as Zorro.  Then we went over to a bar.
> >
> >
> >
> > The eyes of Arizona were upon as as we sashayed inside
> >
> > My uncle dressed as Zorro his shilleagh by his side.
> >
> > "A Sloe Gin Fizz" cried Uncle Joe "and a whiskey for my man."
> >
> > And turned to me said "Tell me, son. when will we see Cheyenne?"
> >
> >
> >
> > I looked up at my Uncle Joe all six foot eight of him
> >
> > And said "Cheyenne's not coming, Joe."  Ah, my Uncle looked so grim!
> >
> > "My Rosalita's left me and I need your advice.
> >
> > I lied about Cheyenne, I fear."  His eyes turned cold as ice.
> >
> >
> >
> > "You've always been a fuckup, son, and I think it's getting worse.
> >
> > You could be so happy if you were polymorphously perverse.
> >
> > But I'll be frank with you, my man, and tell you how I feel:
> >
> > You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the
> heel.
> >
> >
> >
> > You've always been an asshole yet I think you need another
> >
> > And that's what I would give you but for your dear old sainted mother."
> >
> >
> >
> > Joe had fought at Iwo.  Fought the Japs like a machine.
> >
> > Like something out of a Devo.   A fighting gay Marine.
> >
> > Three drunken soldiers came up. One said, "Man, I hate your hat.
> >
> > My Uncle Joe he laid 'em low in thirty seconds flat.
> >
> >
> >
> > The crowd fell back before us as Joe walked out to the car.
> >
> > Uncle Joe made just one remark: "I wish I had my B.A.R.
> >
> > Pulled down his Zorro hat and twitched his Zorro cape.
> >
> > Put in Giuseppe Verdi.  Played that Eight-Track tape.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sang "Celeste Aida" as we went down the Bisbee road.
> >
> > Joe felt just like Zorro.  I felt just like Tom Joad.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> >
> > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> >
> > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> >
> > I'm goin to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/31/07, Patrick McManus < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Look here I am the only low grade (very low grade) drama queen around
> here
> > > and it's me that gets to write the bad poetry
> > > So you all stop trying to muscle in on my scene I can outbad you all
> any
> > > time and as for swans we won't go into that either
> > > Love to you all be warned
> > > Patrick aged silver surfer drama queener extraordinaire
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On
> > > Behalf Of joe green
> > > Sent: 31 October 2007 02:14
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Manipulation (no longer Re: New at Sharp Sand)
> > >
> > > Why, no.  One seeks simple justice.  One wants to hold on....  One's
> sense
> > > of the ridiculous already satisfied!
> > >
> > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > oh yeah, before I forget. I think you've been building up to this so
>
> > > > you could swan around like a low-grade drama queen.
> > > >
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > I've missed nothing, Joe. I just dislike you, your manner and your
> > > > writing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > Just in case you missed it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Andrew. I wonder what other poets, loved in youth, flist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > members have had to reevaluate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Joe Green responded:  None, I never liked bad poetry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joe Green is quoted:  "None, I never liked bad poetry."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote:  So, you just write it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, as you can see, the only decent thing to do is to ask for an
> > > > apology
> > > > > > from Joe Duemer also.
> > > > > > Or is he somehow justified?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If so, please inform the editors at Fulcrum and tell them to
> cancel
> > > my
> > > > 15
> > > > > > pages of execrable verse in the next issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or should I do it for you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > if JG gets to run poetryetc, I'm outahere.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Joe, would you like to run Poetryetc? I'll be glad to hand
> you
> > > the
> > > > keys
> > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > get the hell out of town. Your relentless anti-academic,
> > > > > > > anti-intellectual
> > > > > > > > bullshit has finally just gotten me down. You win. Really,
> it's
> > > > yours.
> > > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > resent the list to make you owner -- just give me the word.
> I
> > > > mean,
> > > > > > > you'd be
> > > > > > > > great because you know everything already & if anyone has
> any
> > > > questions
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > can just ask you & that will settle the issue.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Do you consider the reader's need to not read a
> composition
> > > > based on
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > you think the reader needs?  Seems so very odd... and
> seems
> > > like
> > > > a
> > > > > > > formula
> > > > > > > > > for endless repetition of the same.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seems to have its origins in didactic poesy and seems
> quite
> > > 19th
> > > > > > > century.
> > > > > > > > > Almost schoolmarmish.  Wordsworth began "The Prelude" as
> an
> > > > attempt to
> > > > > > > > > justify his poetry -- why should anyone listen to him?....
> and
> > > > then
> > > > > > > kept
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > revising it until he brought it to ruins.  Thinking of the
> > > > reader had
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > to do with that.  The first prelude wild and open to
> > > > contradiction and
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > fully comprehended even by the poet.  The revisions all
> > > > occasioned by
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > didactic impulse with a sense of not having to demonstrate
>
> > > what
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > > assumed
> > > > > > > > > to have been shown.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I like Eliot's suggestion that a poem is judged by all
> other
> > > > poems --
> > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > poems are the readers in a sense.  They are not troubled
> by
> > > > > > > theoretical
> > > > > > > > > grounds immersed in what is quite secondary and of a
> certain
> > > > time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But I acknowledge that these ideas of how a poem is made
> are
> > > > accepted
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > general public and I suspect that they are created by the
> > > > workshop
> > > > > > > > > mentality
> > > > > > > > > and determined by the enabling conviction that one can be
> > > taught
> > > > to
> > > > > > > write
> > > > > > > > > poetry.  And that many are qualified to do so!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Martin, if you're on shaky theoretical ground then so am
> I.
> > > I
> > > > often
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > myself anticipating what I think of as my readers'
> needs. I
> > > > want to
> > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > > things together in such a way that a reader will have
> some
> > > > reactions
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > have others.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Martin Dolan < [log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On the question of whether "a writer seeks to
> manipulate a
> > > > desired
> > > > > > > > > > > audience", the question very much seems to be one of
> > > > intention.
> > > > > > > > > > > Manipulation in this case definitely has implications
> of
> > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > obtain an advantage or an unfair outcome -
> unfavourable
> > > > intent.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we used a less value-laden description (influence,
> > > > perhaps), it
> > > > > > > > > > > strikes me that I - perhaps alone! - often set out to
> > > > influence
> > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > > > > > through some of my poems, at least by evoking an
> response.
> > > I
> > > > get
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > uneasy feeling that I'm on suspect theoretical ground
> > > here,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > hey, I
> > > > > > > > > > > don't claim I'm successful in my intent.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Martin
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh [probably, Roger, in which case everyone is
> > > > 'sincere'...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But Mark was talking, if I remember rightly, about
> > > whether
> > > > or
> > > > > > > not a
> > > > > > > > > > > > writer seeks to manipulate a desired audience. I
> guess
> > > > that's a
> > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > > > > of intention, whether or not it actually works?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I would tend to agree that we're always readers, but
>
> > > then
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > immediately begin to wonder if that's right, too....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > My more serious point in that post had to do with
> that
> > > > question
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > craft, which as readers we can, I guess, only
> intuit,
> > > out
> > > > of a
> > > > > > > > > > > > sensibility constructed by all our (other)
> reading....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 28-Oct-07, at 3:12 AM, Roger Day wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Outside v inside readings - isnt that some form of
> > > false
> > > > > > > dichotomy?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Neither exists as we're only readers and we impose
> our
> > > > own
> > > > > > > > > > > >> rose-coloured glasses on everything we read. I
> thought
> > > > we'd
> > > > > > > > > excluded
> > > > > > > > > > > >> intentional fallacies?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Roger
> > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour
> > > > > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> > > > > > > > > > > > Edmonton  Ab  T6G 0B9
> > > > > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/<http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's the first lesson, loss.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Who hasn't tried to learn it
> > > > > > > > > > > > at the hands of wind or thieves?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >     Jan Zwicky
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > > > [sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > [sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
>
> > > > sons."
> > > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
> sons."
> > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
> sons."
> > > > Roman Proverb
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.15/1101 - Release Date:
> > > 31/10/2007
> > > 10:06
> > >
> >
>

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