But Joe, in any case, recovered from any disappointments in Naco and was
soon (he was a great fan of Joyce) bustling about the house singing:
O Milly Bloom, you are my darling.
You are my looking glass from night to morning.
I'd rather have you without a farthing
Then Katey Keogh with her ass and garden
Which I found very cheering and to the point.
On 11/1/07, joe green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Yes! It's an old Texan saying with universal applicability! Here Joe
> applied it to me and trying to live it down I ended up leaving the army and
> spending some time in Las Vegas (ok, I was a romantic, wanted to parlay my
> last funds into a fortune and see for myself the English department at the
> University of Nevada, Las Vegas thinking "ah, what reptiles would creep in
> those halls" and hoping to fit in I would take up the study of the poetry of
> evil but I ended up fleeing when I was beaten by my ex mother in law in a
> laundromat. Those were the days.
>
> On 11/1/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> >
> > that's one killer of a ballad.
> > "You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the
> > heel."
> >
> > I'm going to use that, next time I want to tell someone off
> >
> > KS
> >
> > On 31/10/2007, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Yes, I love drama queens as a matter of fact. Is that so Awful? My
> > > favorite uncle -- Joe O'Brien -- was one and here's a true tale of one
> >
> > > adventure he had. Horrible verse some would say! Of course, they are
> > not
> > > from Nashville.
> > >
> > >
> > > *A Ballade of Uncle Joe*
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > >
> > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> > >
> > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> > >
> > > I'm goin' to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My Uncle Joe O'Brien was Irish and was gay.
> > >
> > > Twenty years he had been sighing down in Long Beach near LA.
> > >
> > > Loved Bonanza and loved Sugarfoot. Loved all Louis L'Amour
> > >
> > > He knew Cheyenne was a lonely man. Knew he wanted more.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I was living in Huachuca. This was back in 71.
> > >
> > > I was a sad Palooka. My wife said "Goodbye, hon."
> > >
> > > Took off across Sonora. Left me busted flat.
> > >
> > > You can call me schnoorer. Paco was my cat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > One night I heard the telephone. It was my Uncle Joe.
> > >
> > > Asked him to come see me. He said "Well, I don't know."
> > >
> > > Told him "There's a simple reason you might want to come around.
> > >
> > > It's the tourist season and Clint Walker is in town!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "I'm on the first damn airplane!" cried Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > >
> > > Took a little cocaine so he'd feel alright flying.
> > >
> > > Drove down from Tucson in a yellow renter car.
> > >
> > > Dressed himself as Zorro. Then we went over to a bar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The eyes of Arizona were upon as as we sashayed inside
> > >
> > > My uncle dressed as Zorro his shilleagh by his side.
> > >
> > > "A Sloe Gin Fizz" cried Uncle Joe "and a whiskey for my man."
> > >
> > > And turned to me said "Tell me, son. when will we see Cheyenne?"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I looked up at my Uncle Joe all six foot eight of him
> > >
> > > And said "Cheyenne's not coming, Joe." Ah, my Uncle looked so grim!
> > >
> > > "My Rosalita's left me and I need your advice.
> > >
> > > I lied about Cheyenne, I fear." His eyes turned cold as ice.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "You've always been a fuckup, son, and I think it's getting worse.
> > >
> > > You could be so happy if you were polymorphously perverse.
> > >
> > > But I'll be frank with you, my man, and tell you how I feel:
> > >
> > > You couldn't pour piss from a cowboy boot with the instructions on the
> > heel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You've always been an asshole yet I think you need another
> > >
> > > And that's what I would give you but for your dear old sainted
> > mother."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe had fought at Iwo. Fought the Japs like a machine.
> > >
> > > Like something out of a Devo. A fighting gay Marine.
> > >
> > > Three drunken soldiers came up. One said, "Man, I hate your hat.
> > >
> > > My Uncle Joe he laid 'em low in thirty seconds flat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The crowd fell back before us as Joe walked out to the car.
> > >
> > > Uncle Joe made just one remark: "I wish I had my B.A.R.
> > >
> > > Pulled down his Zorro hat and twitched his Zorro cape.
> > >
> > > Put in Giuseppe Verdi. Played that Eight-Track tape.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sang "Celeste Aida" as we went down the Bisbee road.
> > >
> > > Joe felt just like Zorro. I felt just like Tom Joad.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't go to Naco I told Uncle Joe O'Brien
> > >
> > > Stay here with Paco your tortillas is frying.
> > >
> > > But he said "I have not forsook all joys.
> > >
> > > I'm goin to Naco for those brown eyed boys!"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/31/07, Patrick McManus < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Look here I am the only low grade (very low grade) drama queen
> > around here
> > > > and it's me that gets to write the bad poetry
> > > > So you all stop trying to muscle in on my scene I can outbad you all
> > any
> > > > time and as for swans we won't go into that either
> > > > Love to you all be warned
> > > > Patrick aged silver surfer drama queener extraordinaire
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > On
> > > > Behalf Of joe green
> > > > Sent: 31 October 2007 02:14
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: Manipulation (no longer Re: New at Sharp Sand)
> > > >
> > > > Why, no. One seeks simple justice. One wants to hold on.... One's
> > sense
> > > > of the ridiculous already satisfied!
> > > >
> > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > oh yeah, before I forget. I think you've been building up to this
> > so
> > > > > you could swan around like a low-grade drama queen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > I've missed nothing, Joe. I just dislike you, your manner and
> > your
> > > > > writing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > Just in case you missed it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, Andrew. I wonder what other poets, loved in youth,
> > flist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > members have had to reevaluate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joe Green responded: None, I never liked bad poetry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joe Green is quoted: "None, I never liked bad poetry."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joseph Duemer wrote: So, you just write it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, as you can see, the only decent thing to do is to ask for
> > an
> > > > > apology
> > > > > > > from Joe Duemer also.
> > > > > > > Or is he somehow justified?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If so, please inform the editors at Fulcrum and tell them to
> > cancel
> > > > my
> > > > > 15
> > > > > > > pages of execrable verse in the next issue.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Or should I do it for you?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Roger Day < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if JG gets to run poetryetc, I'm outahere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Joe, would you like to run Poetryetc? I'll be glad to hand
> > you
> > > > the
> > > > > keys
> > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > get the hell out of town. Your relentless anti-academic,
> > > > > > > > anti-intellectual
> > > > > > > > > bullshit has finally just gotten me down. You win. Really,
> > it's
> > > > > yours.
> > > > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > > resent the list to make you owner -- just give me the
> > word. I
> > > > > mean,
> > > > > > > > you'd be
> > > > > > > > > great because you know everything already & if anyone has
> > any
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > can just ask you & that will settle the issue.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, joe green <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Do you consider the reader's need to not read a
> > composition
> > > > > based on
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > you think the reader needs? Seems so very odd... and
> > seems
> > > > like
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > formula
> > > > > > > > > > for endless repetition of the same.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Seems to have its origins in didactic poesy and seems
> > quite
> > > > 19th
> > > > > > > > century.
> > > > > > > > > > Almost schoolmarmish. Wordsworth began "The Prelude" as
> > an
> > > > > attempt to
> > > > > > > > > > justify his poetry -- why should anyone listen to
> > him?.... and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > > kept
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > revising it until he brought it to ruins. Thinking of
> > the
> > > > > reader had
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > to do with that. The first prelude wild and open to
> > > > > contradiction and
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > fully comprehended even by the poet. The revisions all
> > > > > occasioned by
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > didactic impulse with a sense of not having to
> > demonstrate
> > > > what
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > assumed
> > > > > > > > > > to have been shown.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I like Eliot's suggestion that a poem is judged by all
> > other
> > > > > poems --
> > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > poems are the readers in a sense. They are not troubled
> > by
> > > > > > > > theoretical
> > > > > > > > > > grounds immersed in what is quite secondary and of a
> > certain
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But I acknowledge that these ideas of how a poem is made
> > are
> > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > general public and I suspect that they are created by
> > the
> > > > > workshop
> > > > > > > > > > mentality
> > > > > > > > > > and determined by the enabling conviction that one can
> > be
> > > > taught
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > write
> > > > > > > > > > poetry. And that many are qualified to do so!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Martin, if you're on shaky theoretical ground then so
> > am I.
> > > > I
> > > > > often
> > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > > myself anticipating what I think of as my readers'
> > needs. I
> > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > > > things together in such a way that a reader will have
> > some
> > > > > reactions
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > have others.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > jd
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 10/30/07, Martin Dolan < [log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On the question of whether "a writer seeks to
> > manipulate a
> > > > > desired
> > > > > > > > > > > > audience", the question very much seems to be one of
> > > > > intention.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Manipulation in this case definitely has
> > implications of
> > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > obtain an advantage or an unfair outcome -
> > unfavourable
> > > > > intent.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we used a less value-laden description
> > (influence,
> > > > > perhaps), it
> > > > > > > > > > > > strikes me that I - perhaps alone! - often set out
> > to
> > > > > influence
> > > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > > > > > > through some of my poems, at least by evoking an
> > response.
> > > > I
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > uneasy feeling that I'm on suspect theoretical
> > ground
> > > > here,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > hey, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > don't claim I'm successful in my intent.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Martin
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh [probably, Roger, in which case everyone is
> > > > > 'sincere'...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But Mark was talking, if I remember rightly, about
> > > > whether
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > not a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > writer seeks to manipulate a desired audience. I
> > guess
> > > > > that's a
> > > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of intention, whether or not it actually works?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I would tend to agree that we're always readers,
> > but
> > > > then
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > immediately begin to wonder if that's right,
> > too....
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My more serious point in that post had to do with
> > that
> > > > > question
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > craft, which as readers we can, I guess, only
> > intuit,
> > > > out
> > > > > of a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sensibility constructed by all our (other)
> > reading....
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28-Oct-07, at 3:12 AM, Roger Day wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Outside v inside readings - isnt that some form
> > of
> > > > false
> > > > > > > > dichotomy?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Neither exists as we're only readers and we
> > impose our
> > > > > own
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> rose-coloured glasses on everything we read. I
> > thought
> > > > > we'd
> > > > > > > > > > excluded
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> intentional fallacies?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Roger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/<http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edbarbour/>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the first lesson, loss.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Who hasn't tried to learn it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at the hands of wind or thieves?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Jan Zwicky
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > > > > [ sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Joseph Duemer
> > > > > > > > > Professor of Humanities
> > > > > > > > > Clarkson University
> > > > > > > > > [sharpsand.net]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury
> > their
> > > > > sons."
> > > > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
> > sons."
> > > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
> > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their
> > sons."
> > > > > Roman Proverb
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.15/1101 - Release Date:
> > > > 31/10/2007
> > > > 10:06
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
|
