medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Henk 't Jong <[log in to unmask]>
>> but i believe that doorways like this were the Standard before c. 1150 in
(at least) Normandy, the Vexin and the Chartrain regions.
> Agreed, but don't forget English Normanesque churches.
didn't.
hence the "at least" hedge.
>And aren't there similar types of decoration in Sicily, Apulia and Calabria?
don't know.
the "chevron" [i.e., zig-zag] motif might well be norman in origin, in which
case those bastards would have carried it all over everywhere, like a social
desease.
>>simple as it appears, there may be more here than meets the eye: the
Zig-Zags were (imHo) not just pretty "decoration" but were symbolic of the
portal's role as an interface between the Phenomenal and "Real" worlds.
> Any contemporary evidence for that?
none at all, to my knowledge.
at least, not directly.
the idea that we are simply dealing with meaningles "decoration" is, of
course, a Modren Construct, which can be dismissed Out of Hand. (viday Alois
Riegl's work on "Ornament," etc., which has finally been translated into a
decent language, i believe, so i should finally actually read it.)
that the Church (building) was a special, sacred, numinous space different
from that of the Phenominal Whirled could be documented, i suppose, if one
were really bored and felt a need to pass the time documenting the Obvious.
any doorway is an "interface" and, as such, the _limnus_(?) between two
spaces.
in the case of a church these two spaces are simply more radically different
in their essence than, say, the inside and outside of a house.
most house doorways are not decorated.
except for outhouses (in the u.s.), which traditionally had a half-moon shaped
hole in them.
separating the two spaces which are radically different in their essence.
and aroma.
> very ocassionally we can find depictions of a "mandorla" surrounding a
sacred figure which is actually conveying the same idea --the Christ (for
example, there's a particularly nice one in the Utrecht Psalter) inhabits the
Real World, but interacts with the Phenomenal World, with the mandorla
signifying the interface (or "portal") between the two.
> You mean they had Normanesque zigzag decoration before there were Normans?
may non.
the "idea" is that of the mandorla as a "gateway" between the two Realities.
sometimes, however, the edges of mandorlas *do* have zig-zag motifs.
not in the U.P. example which i am thinking of.
in that one (wish i could remember which psalm it illustrates, or could find a
complet U.P. on the web), the cruciform-nimbed X ***steps out of the
mandorla*** into the world.
quite an amazing image, that one.
lots of mandorlaed Xs in that thing, but He doesn't do *that* very often
(there may be two examples, of it, i forget, but not more).
anyway, the point is that you can*not* explain the mandorla as simply a kind
of extended "halo of light" around the figure *if* he can step *out* of it.
at least, i can't.
so, it must be the representation of something *else.*
a kind of "gateway"/interface is what it *looks* like, and so that's what i,
perversely, prefer to think that it actually *is*.
without zig-zags.
which had not been invented yet.
i've not checked the Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman repros of the U.P. for that
particular psalm to see how (of if) they treat the scene.
you could do that, Hink.
and we could co-publish, rather than perishing individually.
authors listed in alphabetical fashion, of course.
>And even in regions which until just about that time had not been in contact
with even their forbears, the Vikings?
viday soupra.
>>of course, listers who are fans of "Star Trek: The Second Generation" will
be familiar with these "portals," with their vibrating, "zig-zag" outlines,
as
they are seen in those episodes which involve travel to different times.
>> proof (as if any were needed) that the M.A. didn't end in 1519.
> Whence 1519? Or have I missed something?
1517, maybe.
whatever.
the whole damned decade.
the Middle Ages --and the Middlevils-- are definitely still With Us, far as i
can see.
c
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