"Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own
interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to
minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are
influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do
this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works
that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by
post-modernist navel gazing."
I'm torn about responding to this because the current discusion seems the
height of navel gazing. So, to be brief - why "try and see beyond our own
particular perspectives and needs"? In the Problems of Philosophy (Christ,
now I'm quoting the great and good) Russell said the point of philosophy was
to provide a questioning stance to all attempts by science to answer
practical questions. Thus, nuclear scientists might split the atom but it
was up to philosphers to ask if this was a good thing. He explicitly ranked
psychology as a science, albeit a young one. So my question would be, "To
whom, exactly, is a deconstructed account of the type you suggest, useful
and compelling?" If the answer is all of us, then how do such accounts
mesh - or are they just endlessly evolved by this kind of discussion?
BTW, my navel is in fine fettle due to endless sit ups.
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moloney Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
Surely, Craig, no one can completely "step outside of [their] self
interest" completely. And I'm not sure that Bourdieu ever claimed to be
doing this. As far as I'm aware, he always acknowledged that it was only
possible for him to develop his ideas because he occupied a relatively
privileged academic niche, which afforded him the necessary economic and
cultural capital, and hence personal security.
Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own
interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to
minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are
influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do
this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works
that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by
post-modernist navel gazing.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes
Sent: 21 November 2007 17:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
suffering
John, I understand, though how you seem to know how "we" see things
(sense
data, whatever) is beyond me. Likewise Bourdieu and all those fine folk
who
can step outside self interest.
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cromby" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
suffering
I mean that how we see the world is not just a matter of visual,
cognitive
processing. That seeing is a body activity, not a disembodied cognitive
process, and the world we see is not simply and objectively out there.
The
world we see is always pre-reflectively shaped by regimes and patterns
of
socialisation acquired in interaction and operating through the body.
And
these regimes and patterns are modally related to variables such as
class
and gender. So I put 'see' in scare quotes, not because there isn't a
world
that we perceive, but because 'seeing' is too readily misconceived as
just
cognitive information processing.
J.
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes
Sent: 21 November 2007 15:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
'see'
As you've put the word see in quote marks I don't even know what you
mean by
it - so assuming you do know what you mean, we see the world differently
-
or is it "see"?
C
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cromby" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
suffering
>I think there's little doubt that people in different social positions
>'see' the world somewhat differently: Bourdieu makes this clear with
>respect to class, as do Iris Marion Young and Sandra Harding with
respect
>to gender. Within psychology, Holzkamp's notion of subjective
possibility
>spaces similarly makes this explicit, and for good materialist reasons
too.
>
> The two more substantive and related issues may be:
> (1) whether the visuospatial metaphor of 'seeing' is the most
appropriate
> one, or whether in fact it actually elides and obscures the
fundamentally
> embodied character of individual's relation to their social world. If
a
> more embodied notion of social relations is adopted, the cognitivist
> implications of simply 'seeing' are avoided; the fact that people
> sometimes act against their own 'objective' self-interest (they don't
> 'see' the real cause of their problems) is partialy explained; and
> something of the intransigence and enduring character of distress is
> potentially explained, as perhaps are some of the inconsistencies
> associated with the various forms of intervention typically offered.
> (2) moving away from the visuospatial metaphor also makes it clear
that
> individuals don't simply have a clear choice with regard to how they
'see'
> the world; this also speaks to the inconsistent efficacy of
therapeutic
> interventions, whilst helping us professionals to 'see' that
constructing
> people's frequent failure to 'see' the world as we do as 'resistance'
or
> 'non-compliance' is not only unhelpful but also incorrect.
>
> J.
>
>
> Craig Newnes wrote:
>> I suppose the question is, "How would we know we see the world
>> differently?"
>> Craig
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: richard pemberton To: [log in to unmask] Sent:
>> Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>> suffering
>>
>>
>> the notion of naive realism sounds cute but surely kelly was right
in
>> his constructive alternativism - I dont understand why we are
oppressed
>> by the way we see the world - this sounds very beckian - different
>> prevaling world views or discourses have different utilities and
>> differing explanations of identity suffering or consciousness - class
or
>> other? richard
>>
>> On 11/20/07, Penny Priest <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Yes I
think
>> so sort of
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: David Fryer To: [log in to unmask] Sent:
>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>> suffering
>>
>> Thanks Penny . . . perhaps, then, neither of us is convinced
that
>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are so separate and
different
>> ... not because we think people accurately see things 'as they are' (
a
>> sort of naive realist perceptual account) but because 'what there
is',
>> the social world, is not only 'outside' but also 'inside', that we
are
>> increasingly oppressively 'governed' through the way in which we
>> understand ourselves as part of the social world and that this
oppression
>> is achieved in part through dominant oppressive discourses which it
does
>> not make sense to consider as outside or inside or as aspects of the
way
>> 'the world is' or the way 'the world is perceived'?
>> David
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>> Penny Priest
>> Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 22:23
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>
>> Regarding this debate, I refer people back to the special
issue in
>> Clinical Psychology Forum, written by the Midlands Psychology Group.
This
>> can be found at: www.midpsy.freeuk.com
>> At this particular point, I agree most with David Fryer.
>> Penny
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gopfert, Michael To: [log in to unmask]
Sent:
>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation
and
>> suffering
>>
>> I think that our capacity to de-construct (how we see
things) as
>> well as to construct, our need to have truths and look beyond is all
part
>> of the same human condition which enables abstract thinking and
>> capitalism. The evolution of money ( i.e. the bedrock of 'capitalism'
and
>> the emergence of philosophy (the basis of community psychology,
Marxism
>> etc. in their embryonic form) are roughly parallel processes
>> historically.
>>
>> What is important to recognise is that our belief in the
>> therapies is probably slightly grandiose though they do help a bit
and
>> for a short while and on some occasions a lot. However, the
differences
>> are like minor variations in my mind, more of the importance of
choosing
>> the right size screwdriver for the job , so it fits the task. Hope
this
>> is a helpful perspective.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer
>> Sent: 20 November 2007 21:13
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>
>>
>>
>> A key issue seems (to me) to be the (problematic) assumption
that
>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are separate and different.
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf
of
>> McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust)
>> Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 20:42
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering Can't
help
>> feeling you may be reading too much into non-attatchment.
>> While I find CBT a bit lightweight compared to the emptiness
of
>> the five
>> skandas, the Buddha and Beck were/are both unified by a a
belief
>> that it is how you see things that is the cause of suffering. And
>> actually they
>> both have a point. While you can trumpet Beck as a running
dog of
>> capitalism (though that leaves him sounding like a villan
which
>> is
>> pretty unfair), suffering is (sometimes) about how we see
things.
>> Of course if that's ALL you do then you might be open to the charge
of,
>> what was it? "exploiting Capitalist notions of change".
>>
>> Any form of Buddhism I've encountered doesn't deny that life
and
>> its injustices and sufferings may lead to unavoidable pain (no matter
how
>> enlightened you become) it's the constructs that cause the
>> suffering.
>> Are therapy and therapists so engaged. Well the ones on this
list
>> seem to be. The point I was trying to make though (and to bring my
>> meandering
>> back to community psychology) is that the original quote
outlines
>> something that for me is actually a dilemma. Both the way one
>> sees and
>> the world itself are both important. The fact that I spend
much
>> of my
>> time on the former no more make me a purveyor of bogus
>> techno-individualism than the burger I had for lunch makes me
a
>> murderer.
>>
>> Though that may depend on how you see it of course. John
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> [ mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig
>> Newnes
>> Sent: 20 November 2007 15:07
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>
>> Therapists (CBT and all others really) are in the same
>> business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change
>> meanings or our view of things.
>>
>> I've seen some rubbish in my time... Surely the point is to
let
>> go of
>> ALL
>> attachment, including attachment to ideas like "trying to
change
>> meanings".
>> Beck and others are simply exploiting Capitalist notions of
>> change, well being, etc. This is put in fancy language so therapists
can
>> persuade
>> themselves that change is possible especially through
>> techno-individualism
>> which they can charge for. But if these therapists were
>> Buddhists - and had
>> Beck not been so interested in making money - they would
spend
>> far more
>> time
>> just keeping still.
>> Craig
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust)"
>> < [log in to unmask]>
>> To: < [log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation
and
>> suffering
>>
>>
>> It's a very interesting point and of course one where you are
not
>> the first there as it is addressed in the first of the Four Noble
Truths
>> of
>> Buddhism (Life is suffering). The The Buddhist framework
>> obviously goes
>> on to say that suffering as caused by attatchment and talks
>> about ways that releif can be obtained.
>>
>> In many ways (and this is hardly an original thought) this
makes
>> it
>> sound as if the Buddha studied under Beck. Thus suffering
(rather
>> less
>> poetically) is caused by maladaptive coping mechanisms and
>> dysfunctional assumptions. Therapists (CBT and all others really) are
in
>> the same
>> business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change
>> meanings
>> or our view of things.
>>
>> The reason for thie religious waffle (and I do hate bringing
>> relegion into things) is really just to point out that this is a very
old
>> dliemma
>> raised by the quote below and one which unfortunately doesn't
>> seem to
>> get any easier for sucessive generations. Its just the both
parts
>> being true that seems to scupper me!
>>
>> John McGowan
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>> [ mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig
>> Newnes
>> Sent: 19 November 2007 10:20
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>
>> Surely the "cause" of suffering is being alive.
>> Craig
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Burton" < [log in to unmask]>
>> To: < [log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:01 PM
>> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>> suffering
>>
>>
>> I came across this quotable insight.....
>>
>>
>>
>> "Anyone working for a saner world will, from time to time, be
>> faced with
>> the choice of caring for present suffering or working to
remove
>> the
>> cause
>> of suffering. The choice is always painful. More so because
we
>> know that a
>> preoccupation with present suffering-of which there is
apparently
>> an
>> inexhaustible supply-is a means of social control. We all
know
>> people
>> who
>> have become so involved in caring for present suffering that
they
>> have not
>> time and eventually no optimism for the radical changes which
>> would
>> remove
>> the source of the problem."
>>
>>
>> from http://www.mickeyz.net/
>>
>> ___________________________________
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> --
> ********************************************************
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> Department of Human Sciences
> Loughborough University
> Loughborough, Leics
> LE11 3TU England
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