Figure out the right moves, KS, and then
use some others.
Hal
"You are not thinking. You are merely
being logical."
--Niels Bohr to Albert Einstein
Halvard Johnson
================
[log in to unmask]
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
On Oct 15, 2007, at 4:22 PM, kasper salonen wrote:
> gotcha. tells you something about the power the title-addition has,
> with all this puzzlement. whether that means that intuition is the
> right move or not for something this apparently far-reaching is not
> easy to say
>
> KS
>
> On 15/10/2007, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Hi, Kasper--
>>
>> Being perplexed isn't all that bad now, is it?
>>
>> I work more from intuition and serendipity and
>> instinct than from planning and reasoning. So,
>> whether the word "sonnet" appears in a title
>> is worked out on a case by case basis.
>>
>> In any case, I'm much less interested in "defining"
>> the word "sonnet" than in other things, such
>> as sound, rhythm (not meter), syntax, diction,
>> tone, etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> Hal, (more) forthcoming now due to increasing
>> perplexity about your perplexity
>>
>>
>> Today's Special
>>
>> The Sonnet Project
>> http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>>
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:01 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
>>
>>> my critical blabbering can be considered torture, I guess!
>>>
>>> I was just wondering *why* & *how* you define it more broadly, but
>>> you've not been very forthcoming with your interpretation. you don't
>>> have to be, if you'd rather I & someone else kept being perplexed at
>>> the 'sonnet'-title you give many of your poems.
>>>
>>> KS
>>>
>>> On 14/10/2007, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> That pretty much sums it up, Kasper. I define "sonnet" more
>>>> broadly (okay, much more broadly) than you do.
>>>>
>>>> I also define "torture" much more broadly than Bush does,
>>>> not that I'm paralleling you to Bush in any way.
>>>>
>>>> Hal
>>>>
>>>> "If you can't annoy somebody, what's
>>>> the point in writing?"
>>>> --Kingsley Amis
>>>>
>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>> ================
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:11 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> well the problem I have with sonnets, if it can be called a
>>>>> problem,
>>>>> is that I generally don't consider the form to be much at all
>>>>> without
>>>>> its structure. I mean, originally I believe a sonnet was intended
>>>>> fairly strictly as a love poem, even an ode-like addressal
>>>>> (Petrarch's
>>>>> Laura &c.); that seems to have fallen away entirely as a
>>>>> requirement.
>>>>> I used to write a lot of sonnets, none of them about love; the
>>>>> only
>>>>> thing that made them sonnets, to me, was the (optional) ABAB & the
>>>>> iambic pentameter. looking back, they were all quite
>>>>> introspective &
>>>>> yet broad, descriptions & propsals for connections (links between
>>>>> forest, heaven, home, monastery, that sort of thing); but that
>>>>> came
>>>>> pretty much along with the form, which almost requires some
>>>>> form of
>>>>> deep thought for the iambic punching to be worth anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> but take away the structure, as Hal has done, and I see little or
>>>>> nothing to indicate or even remind me of the form. Hal you say
>>>>> it's a
>>>>> "broad, deep river"; you clearly have strong personal reasons for
>>>>> believing that, but I don't see it personally -- I wouldn't mind
>>>>> being
>>>>> talked into it. I've always considered the sonnet to be a very
>>>>> shallow
>>>>> poetic form, one of those "form justifies content" (meaning that a
>>>>> sonnet was good as long as the rhymes & metre were in place)
>>>>> sort of
>>>>> deals which drove me away from metric poetry in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> some early sonnets were quite provocative in ways, mentioning
>>>>> kings &
>>>>> priests & laymen in contexts in which they weren't supposed to
>>>>> appear;
>>>>> so maybe by calling an anti-Bush poem a 'sonnet' means to bring
>>>>> out
>>>>> some mode of ancient commentary?
>>>>> as to the way sonnets 'move and behave', as Joanna put it, I would
>>>>> attribute ALL movement & behaviour to be confined within the
>>>>> cage of
>>>>> its structure. without the cage, it can go anywhere & thus escape
>>>>> classification.
>>>>>
>>>>> KS
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14/10/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>> Yes I know, the exception rather than the rule, and a matter for
>>>>>> comment. It
>>>>>> might be interesting to look at a few of them, and see what
>>>>>> actually does
>>>>>> make them sonnets rather than thirteen-line poems. *If we can
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> examples that we can agree on as being true examples.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But to my mind, a sonnet is more than just the number of its
>>>>>> lines, and I
>>>>>> suspect that this is what Kasper's feeling here, possibly Janet
>>>>>> too. I mean,
>>>>>> not all four-legged animals are dogs -- there are differentials
>>>>>> that mark
>>>>>> them out instantly from cats. Nor do the tailless Manx cat and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> boxer dog
>>>>>> with the docked tail cloud the issue there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect it's something to do with the way they move and behave,
>>>>>> but would
>>>>>> be interested to see what others think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> joanna
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "andrew burke" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:21 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There have been 13 line sonnets in history, y'know ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/10/2007, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good questions, Janet, especially that last para.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a habit of writing short poems which turn out to be 13-
>>>>>>>> liners. A
>>>>>>>> surprising number of people say "Why don't you add another
>>>>>>>> line,
>>>>>>>> and then
>>>>>>>> it'll be a sonnet?" My answer is usually "It doesn't want to be
>>>>>>>> one --
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> yes, I did ask it!" However, the real reason I don't is more
>>>>>>>> likely that
>>>>>>>> I've said what I need to say in 13 lines and can see no
>>>>>>>> point in
>>>>>>>> adding a
>>>>>>>> 14th for the sake of it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having said that, though, I can and do write sonnets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> joanna
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Janet Jackson" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:52 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Sonnets (Re: Sonnet for the Criminally Insane )
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mine are non-metrical, non-rhyming (for the most part)
>>>>>>>>>> sonnets. The sonnet's a broad, deep river with interesting
>>>>>>>>>> eddies at its margins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, Hal, please would you educate us?
>>>>>>>>> What makes a poem a sonnet, and not just a 14-line poem?
>>>>>>>>> That it presents an opinion?
>>>>>>>>> That the lines are longish and all about the same length?
>>>>>>>>> That if you really work at it you read it with five stresses
>>>>>>>>> per line?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a book somewhere that claims sonnets should have
>>>>>>>>> a "volta", a twist at about line 9, but I don't see that
>>>>>>>>> in this one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suspect Kasper is more interested in why you bother
>>>>>>>>> labelling
>>>>>>>>> it a sonnet, what your purpose is in doing that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Janet
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>> Janet Jackson <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> www.myspace.com/poetjj
>>>>>>>>> www.proximity.webhop.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Allegedly, some kid poet came over to Robert Frost at some
>>>>>>>>> gathering
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> introduced himself by saying "I'm a poet." Frost replied
>>>>>>>>> "That's a
>>>>>>>>> praise word. I'd wait 'til someone else called me that."
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>> http://www.inblogs.net/hispirits
>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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