Yeah, I've read some of David Goode's stuff.. very useful.. I guess my real
point though is that, fabulously useful though it is, we needn't overly
valorise language as the exemplar of what it is to be human, or indeed
sentient.
J.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Rapley" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
J
One or two obstacles indeed - though Manny Schegloff has done some very
interesting CA stuff on non-linguistic communication by folks with
commisurotomy (as has David Goode with non-hearing/non-seeing children with
rubella syndrome). Of course, pace Wittgenstein and his beetle, in principle
we can never have access to the "interiority" of _any_ other, whatever their
linguistic abilities. But that's another question entirely!
As far as CBT goes, activities such as so-called socratic dialogue do rather
presuppose a certain command of spoken language....(though Derek Edwards has
done a rather nice demolition job on socratic dialogue too).
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
University of East London,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409 (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of J.Cromby
Sent: Tue 16-Oct-07 13:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
A small aside re point 3: I've met people with profound and severe multiple
impairments (both physical and cognitive) who had no expressive language,
and who did not appear to respond in consistent ways to things that were
said to them i.e. who did not seem to have receptive language.
Of course, neither I nor anyone else could know whether their thought
processes were nevertheless structured by 'inner speech' in the Vygotskian
sense, although Vygotsky himself might have ruled this out since their
multiple impairments and the discrimation associated with them meant they
had clearly not able to participate fully in the relevant social processes
by which such inner speech might have been acquired.
For me, the interesting issue here is why we should consider it so important
to 'have' language Perhaps we should follow Vygotsky himself and identify
feelings arising from the body as the essential raw stuff of human thought
and experience?
I do realise that this wouild raise one or two obstacles to conversation
analysis...
J.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Rapley" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
D
Points well taken! Forgive me for my terminological incorrectnes, however,
pace David S's comments, we are trying to communicate with folks who employ
terms we may not like very much, but who either may not understand ours, or
may read into some of them "extreme" (hence instantly dismissible)
positions.... Vis a vis point 1 I was simply trying to strengthen the point
that the implicit magic bullet status for all proposed by some CBT
proponents
is hollow; point 2. I think I'm on record re: the social model, but strongly
suspect that the news editor of the Daily Mail etc. wouldn't have a clue -
hence a term that may be understood in the target audience(I'm pretty sure
that "retarded" or some such would do the job better, sadly). 3. Ditto re:
no
language. Us part time conversation analysts call it recipient design ;)
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
University of East London,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409 (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of David Fryer
Sent: Tue 16-Oct-07 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
Dear Mark / Deborah,
I think your point, Deborah, is in general VERY important and very much like
your suggestion Mark (R) of "It is bad enough to be depressed because you
have been unemployed, have been the victim of routine racial vilification or
of homophobic harassment, or to be anxious because you are subjected to
regular domestic violence..." (though I would prefer 'heterosexism' to
'homophobic harassment' as I try to avoid refs to clinical individual level
pathologising concepts like 'phobia')
BUT I have several reservations about: "the effectiveness of CBT and
kindred
interventions in any hands is widely exaggerated and they are impossible to
apply in many situations, for example with people who have intellectual
impairments, people who have no language, or people who are from many
non-western cultures..."
1. we surely do not want anyone to be able to read our statement as saying
we are arguing for the development the capacity to deliver CBT to ethnic
minority or other groups .... we do not want any groups to be subjected to
CBT!
2. At Stirling critical praxis in relation to disabling practices,
procedures
and policies is underway. This operates from within a social justice model
of
disability which rejects the hangover of the medical model of disability in
the form of 'impairments' and finds the notion of 'intellectual impairment'
problematic.
3. Are there any people who have no language?
I suppose this illustrates the difficulties in agreeing beyond core
principles
David
because
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Mark Rapley
Sent: Tue 16/10/2007 10:23
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
Hi Mark et al
Thanks for all the hard work that you've put into this. Love the headline!
Would it work better with a question mark?
I thought I'd offer
(1) a suggested form of words to address Deborah's important point about
treatment "eligibility"
(2) ditto re: other forms of inequality/discrimination
(3) just a couple of tiny, pedantic, fine-tunes and
(4) stick my hand up to be a contact point for enquiries: contact details
are
in my 'signature'.
So, could Point 4 expand slightly to say something like:
the effectiveness of CBT and kindred interventions in any hands is widely
exaggerated and they are impossible to apply in many situations, for example
with people who have intellectual impairments, people who have no language,
or people who are from many non-western cultures...
And point 6...
It is bad enough to be depressed because you have been unemployed, have been
the victim of routine racial vilification or of homophobic harassment, or to
be anxious because you are subjected to regular domestic violence...
Pedantry now
Point 2 may read better as '... the scale of socially caused distress is so
vast, and growing so rapidly, that it is impossible...'
Point 3 may read better as '..could train enough practitioners, there is
little reason to think that one to one...'
Point 7 '...those treated go back into the psychologically toxic contexts
which made...'
Over to you....
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
University of East London,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409 (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Mark Burton
Sent: Tue 16-Oct-07 08:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The CBT announcement - who is going to tell them they've been
had? Final draft. please add your name.
Here then is what I hope will be the final draft. Of course we could go
on fine tuning it, but I suggest that it is now good enough to go.
It is a Word attachment.
It looks like we are going without affiliations and titles (since we don't
have them for everyone)
Main changes:
1. taken out reference to clinical psychologists in point 1
2. added further names - Jan and Paul I added yours as you seemed to
imply support but didn't specifically state your support - some others
have commented largely positively but had significant reservations so
haven't added their names - let me know if you want to come in.
3. added reference to the stepped model in point 3
4. added a paragraph on what the network is at point 9
5. I've just seen Bob's suggested points and like them. If nobody
objects I think they could helpfully go in too.
Still needed:
1. Any fax nos and other suggestions for good places to send it.
2. Someone to volunteer as contact point for enquiries - this can be to
route them to other people
3. Still time to add your name to the statement
4. If anyone wants to add footnotes to references - e.g. Wilkinson and
evidence on treatment effectiveness, I think it could bear two or three
to show that this isn't just opinion.
5. I'll post it on the www.compsy.org.uk site too once finalised.
Aboslute final deadline is now 5.30pm today
And thanks everyone for the great response - feels like the list is really
working - very constructive, respectful and action oriented debate.
By the way - I hope I don't seem to be taking over - I'm responding to
David's request that I finalise it with Julie (who has now sent her
stylistic contribution).
Mark
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