Stephen, it is true that a couple of posts arrived right after Alison left
the list that were inappropriate. They came in before I issued my request to
cool it. I regret that. Obviously, we have let everything on the subject
stand & become part of the record. It is unfortunate that you see my motives
as nefarious, but there is nothing I can do about that.

As for talk of "war," Anny did use the word, posting as a list member, not
as a list manager. It is not the word I would have used to describe the
discussion. I will respond to the part of your second paragraph above that
deals with poetics when I have a bit more time. Ir was an interesting
discussion, though from what you have written you A) misunderstand my
position & B) are imputing psychological states & aesthetic positions to me
that I do not hold. This of course may be entirely my fault for not
articulating them with sufficient clarity. Or you may be misunderstanding me
for your own purposes.

jd

On 6/10/07, Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Dear Joe and Annie:
>
> Look, without naming names, some people took the opportunity to trash
> Alison
> after she announced that she was leaving the list. I am not stupidly
> suggesting a regurgitation of this or any other wounds that were either
> needled or suffered in the process.
>
> I am calling for a little decency in acknowledging Alison's huge input
> into
> variously maintaining and supporting the vitality of many of the most
> interesting discussions on this list - including the use of "I" in poetry,
> theater and where have you. Relinquishing the claim on the authority of
> the
> "I" often provokes deeply disturbed responses in poets, especially when
> young, and indeed older ones who have staked the value of the "I" as
> inextricably involved in finding and declaring("sincerely") a fresh
> identity, one independent of shackles -  either personal or literary. I
> found the intensity of the argument and discussion to be vital. The level
> of
> impatience and scorn, declarations of "war" between both points of view
> was
> inevitable. Nobody behaved real well (at times) and Alison, sadly, left
> gracelessly. At  least the issue got out in the open!
>
> But to pretend to that Alison's history  on this listserv (even giving a
> little farewell gratitude) should be relegated by Joe into b/c messages to
> Joe strikes me as low-level Elizabethan.
>
> And, thanks Joe for the offer to organize the snaps; my time and interest
> in
> the weekly "snap" has slipped away -  I remain grateful to Alison and
> Randolph Healy for keeping alive a context that helped incubate a lot of
> new
> work for me and the exposure of the work of others active on this list. I
> think you will have to issue a general call for somebody with a fresh
> interest.
>
> Stephen V
> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thank you Joseph. I couldn't have answered better.
> >
> > On this list it has been a custom _never_ to talk of someone who left
> > the list - or was sent away.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/10/07, Joseph Duemer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Stephen, it is a long-standing though perhaps informal practice of
> listservs
> >> not to discuss people who cannot respond. Alison's own message to
> Candice,
> >> posted here, indicated that she found further discussion objectionable.
> The
> >> request to let the matter drop was made in consultation with the other
> list
> >> manager and it was not arbitrary, a characterization I strongly object
> to.
> >> Nor did I tell anyone to "shut up," either literally or in my tone. I
> >> invited anyone who wanted to discuss this matter to do so off-list with
> Anny
> >> and myself. But, as I told Ken yesterday, let it all hang out. No posts
> have
> >> been deleted. The list managers were merely attempting to comply with
> custom
> >> and with Alison's explicit wishes as we understood them.
> >>
> >> If you would like to volunteer to put the snaps in chronological order,
> I'm
> >> sure everyone would consider it a commendable service to the list. I'd
> be
> >> delighted to arrange whatever permissions you need to access the
> Jiscmail
> >> server.
> >>
> >> Joseph Duemer
> >> Co-Mgr. Poetryetc.
> >>
> >> On 6/10/07, Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have had my say on Alison's major significance to this list. & she
> >>> indeed
> >>> decided to leave for her own reasons, not of the 'management.'
> >>>
> >>> (I would add that there are few vital contributors that in the heat of
> >>> whatever have not been flawed in our ripostes and been variously
> called to
> >>> task others to cool off, and I suspect Alison would acknowledge that
> she
> >>> pulled some real, occasionally offensive bloopers.)
> >>>
> >>> Alison, as I have said, was important to the conversation/debate,
> etc.  to
> >>> many of us who have been here for time several years. She also,
> indeed,
> >>> put
> >>> in a great deal of labor on the list (like keeping the Snaps in
> >>> chronological, archival order - something that seems to have gone up
> in
> >>> smoke now?).
> >>>
> >>> That is why I find it real disturbing that Joe arbitrarily decides
> that no
> >>> one should discuss Alison's contributions (our new ghost in the
> >>> cyber-cosmic
> >>> closet?). I know Chairmen do this in various political and academic
> >>> settings, but in this context I am sure many of us don't like to be
> told
> >>> to
> >>> shut up on things that are important to us.
> >>>
> >>> Stephen V
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Well, I have no problem in inviting them back sometime....
> >>>>
> >>>> It's up to them, of course.
> >>>>
> >>>> things go awry sometimes on lists like this, tone, tone tone....
> >>>>
> >>>> I do want the list to continue, as I enjoy the conversation, even
> when
> >>>> it gets a bit out of hand, but I also know that you & Joe took on the
> >>>> running when others of us couldn't or didn't anyway, & so I thank you
> >>>> for that & hope you'll keep doing so even through the occasional
> little
> >>>> storm....
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug
> >>>> On 9-Jun-07, at 9:57 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Well Peter,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bircumshaw was more off than on the present list, as far as I can
> >>>>> remember. And Yes, you are right the last time he was sent away
> >>>>> because he said something he did not have to say to Lawrence, what
> >>>>> about the previous times?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And Rebecca Seiferle? And Henry Gould? And Kent Johnson? Erminia
> >>>>> Passannanti? There were some incredible poets on this list, where
> are
> >>>>> they now?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Anny
> >>>> Douglas Barbour
> >>>> 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> >>>> Edmonton  Ab  T6G 0B9
> >>>> (780) 436 3320
> >>>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
> >>>>
> >>>> Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> >>>> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Art has to be forgotten: Beauty must be realized.
> >>>>
> >>>> Piet Mondrian
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joseph Duemer
> >> Professor of Humanities
> >> Clarkson University
> >> [sharpsand.net]
> >>
>



-- 
Joseph Duemer
Professor of Humanities
Clarkson University
[sharpsand.net]