Hi Paul, folks, I think the nub of the issue is contained within your statement here:

"As I have already said I don't really perceive there being an issue  
here. However as I also said, I accept not everybody sees it that way  
and wouldn't want to alienate users."

It is true that much of what we do is unregulated and we make a gut choice. However, and as a for-instance, that some goon in the
states sees no moral issue with spamming my mail box to hell and back without my say so would surely show - we are often not best
placed or best intentioned at determining what our users would find acceptable.

 If in doubt, surely better to let them know. If you made it known on your private site to your visitors that their ever move on
the site was being closely examined - what would the outcome be? Forewarn them, educate them to what will be happening whilst they
skip through your pages and ask them for feedback. 

Could be that the majority either don't understand or don't mind. On the other hand, it could be your site stats dip like crazy
because having being informed they make a conscious decision to avoid your site at their perceived cost to their own privacy.

I think there would be a bit of a risk associated with making your viewing public thus informed.But surely, is that not then
indicative of something of the ethical nature of the problem and of NOT telling your clients about the matter.

From a certain perspective, to me, its little more than spyware by browser proxy

Steve


On 29 Mar 2007, at 09:37, Kieren Pitts wrote:

> Hi All
>
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:27:37 +0100, Jethro R Binks
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Paul Boag wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, I don't wish to spam this list so this will be my last  
>>> comment.
>>
>> I think this is a legitimate discussion for this list.
>>
>
>
> I agree, I think this is a legitimate discussion.
>
>
>>> I don't have a problem with this kind of monitoring but I accept  
>>> this is
>>> my personal opinion. I use it to better understand my users and so
>>> provide them with a better site that is easier to use. All of the
>>> information collected is anonymous and so I am struggling to  
>>> think how
>>> it could be used negatively.
>>
>
>
> I think it would be fairly easy for me to enter information on your  
> site
> that would make me personally identifiable or that would enable you  
> to learn
> a lot about me. For example, I could be an external person  
> searching for
> information on a relative or a friend.... I could be a member of staff
> looking for information on bullying in the workplace... In the latter
> example, if you have my recorded session and my IP address then you  
> suddenly
> have quite a distressing profile of a user without their knowledge.  
> I think
> this is different to trawling through thousands of lines of access  
> logs to
> see who visited the pages on bullying in the workplace.
>
> Afterall, the longer you track my session the more specific to me my
> behaviour is likely to become.
>
> Also I disagree that this method is equivalent to normal stats  
> analysis. If
> we assume I'm an AOL user and your site doesn't set cookies then my
> behaviour is difficult to track because each request I make to your  
> server
> comes from a different IP address - this obfuscation doesn't occur  
> if my
> session is recorded. Also, if I visit a page I may spent 5mins slowly
> scrolling down it reading the content, or I may go to it, wander  
> off to get
> a cup of tea, come back and decide within 2s that the page isn't  
> what I'm
> after. Tracking and recording sessions tells you what a user  
> actually did
> rather than traditional log analysis which merely "infers" for a  
> lot of metrics.
>
>
>> On its own, perhaps, but you already said that you can also collect a
>> gazillion other things too, which potentially could narrow down the
>> possibilities if you were so interest.  And if you're a site that  
>> requires
>> a login, e-commerce or whatever, and you're still tracking this  
>> stuff,
>> then it suddenly isn't very anonymous at all.  While you would  
>> probably
>> say "I wouldn't use it in those cases", and I'd probably believe  
>> you, I
>> wouldn't expect the same of many companies, hungry for every  
>> minutiae they
>> can get ...
>>
>> Indeed, they probably already are ...
>>
>>> Perhaps I am naive but I find amazon's approach of "you bought  
>>> this a
>>> year ago so now I am going to sell you this" much more intrusive.
>>
>> You have a supplier-consumer relationship with Amazon, so it is  
>> perfectly
>> natural to see, and expect, this sort of behaviour.  Real World  
>> vendors do
>> it, and the Internet is no different.
>>
>>> I use it to better understand my users and so
>>> provide them with a better site that is easier to use.
>>
>
>
> Do you tell them you track them? FWIW I agree with Jethro that this is
> intrusive and I think it would be worth informing users that this  
> activity
> is going on.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kieren
>
>
>> This research has been going on for over 10 years now.  Has no-one  
>> worked
>> out the set of answers yet?
>>
>> Jethro.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 Mar 2007, at 13:08, Jethro R Binks wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Paul Boag wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Where I would disagree is that current level of tracking is "well
>>>>> understood". Its well understood by the likes of us but if you  
>>>>> told my
>>>>> mum what I could learn about her by simply looking at web stats  
>>>>> she
>>>>> would be surprised.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't mention your mum, and I didn't say we weren't talking  
>>>> about the
>>>> likes of us.
>>>>
>>>>> If you want to object to this type of monitoring I would argue  
>>>>> you need
>>>>> to object to all monitoring.
>>>>
>>>> OK.  I made a distinction between monitoring of fact ("which  
>>>> browser did
>>>> they use?", "which web pages did they visit and in what  
>>>> order?"), and
>>>> monitoring of behaviour ("which way did they waggle their  
>>>> mouse?", "how
>>>> long did they have a page up without clicking a link?", "what  
>>>> else were
>>>> they doing while they were not navigating around my lovely  
>>>> pages?").
>>>>
>>>> The difference is very subtle, and for some examples you could  
>>>> argue it
>>>> either way.  But since you raised it, I do in fact believe that  
>>>> monitoring
>>>> behaviour (as opposed to fact) of users is generally a fairly  
>>>> unpleasant
>>>> and even immoral business, and I do object to it.
>>>>
>>>> Jethro.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> error, please notify us and remove it from your system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28 Mar 2007, at 12:56, Jethro R Binks wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Paul Boag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It definitely does record the cursor. That isn't difficult if  
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> about it. You can use javascript to get the position of the  
>>>>>>> cursor so
>>>>>>> all you need to do is right those to a database over time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for whether it is creepy and intrusive; I can understand you
>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>> that but really it is no more so than the stats we already  
>>>>>>> collect.
>>>>>>> Think about it, you know from which site I entered your site,  
>>>>>>> you
> know
>>>>>>> what operating system I am running, how long I spent on the  
>>>>>>> page,
> what
>>>>>>> search terms I entered, where in the world I live... the list
> goes on.
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many of those are well-understood as simply by-products of  
>>>>>> using the
>>>>>> web,
>>>>>> and are measures of fact.  Measuring behaviour to this level  
>>>>>> of detail
>>>>>> for your web visitors sounds excessive to me, especially if  
>>>>>> they aren't
>>>>>> aware that the minutiae of their activities is being logged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you really want to see how a visitor reacts to your design or
>>>>>> navigation, surely a less intrusive way is to get together a  
>>>>>> group of
>>>>>> volunteers and watch them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jethro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 28 Mar 2007, at 12:42, Jethro R Binks wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Paul Boag wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the moment I am beta testing an interesting new product  
>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>> ClickTale (www.clicktale.net). Its currently in closed beta  
>>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> really encourage you to sign up so they inform you when it  
>>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>>> live.
>>>>>>>>> As
>>>>>>>>> well as providing all of the normal analytics you would  
>>>>>>>>> expect it
>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>> records a random number of user sessions. It records it in the
>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> flash video that allows you to watch a user move around your
> site,
>>>>>>>>> scroll through pages and even watch the movements of their
> cursor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It really is the next best thing to usability testing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it really does record the cursor movements (and I do not
> know how
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> does that) ... don't you find that a bit creepy and intrusive?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jethro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>>>>  . .
>>>>>>>> . .
>>>>>>>> . .
>>>>>>>> Jethro R Binks
>>>>>>>> Computing Officer, IT Services
>>>>>>>> University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>>  . . .
>>>>>> . .
>>>>>> Jethro R Binks
>>>>>> Computing Officer, IT Services
>>>>>> University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ 
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>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>  . . . .
>>>> Jethro R Binks
>>>> Computing Officer, IT Services
>>>> University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
>>>>
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>> Jethro R Binks
>> Computing Officer, IT Services
>> University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
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