A rather large motor manufacturer in Luton does covert surveillance. It
is quite legal where justified. But it is not an OH function.
I think if I had seen this chap and in my opinion felt he was fit for
work, then I would have reported it as so and let line managers do what
they wanted. After all, it is our job in OH to advise on fitness for
work as opposed to diagnosing disease and as peter said, or was it Bob,
the MED 3 is only there to enable said employer to claim SSP.
Maybe in time, this incident will get published somewhere..hopefully not
in The Sun!!!!
James
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Frank Oakes
Sent: 15 February 2007 16:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
I have seen this before and the employer (nothing to do with OH) hired a
private detective. It was interesting to see him loading his van with
timber, working in his garage on DVD. He resigned on production of the
evidence. I believe he should have been dismissed.
Keep us posted.
Cheers
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Peter Judge
Sent: 15 February 2007 15:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Hiya Noushin
I think the point is he has fiddled the system, he knows it, his GP
knows, but most importantly his employer knows and it is his employers
responsibility to deal with it not OH's. You cannot ask for a sabatical
to set up your own business, get turned down, go on sickness absence
leave to suck your thumb because you can't reach your dummy and then ask
for the same sabatical under the same circmstances when you are actually
supposed to be physically incapable of working.
That is fraudulent and his employer would be better spending a couple of
hundred quid hiring a private investigator to prove he is doing this and
deal with him via the disciplinary procedures rather than the sickness
absence procedure. What happened to whistleblowing anyway.
We are very good in OH at doing other people's work for them, in this
case line management should be more proactive and set an example, I
don't doubt that he has already told half the workforce what his
intentions are anyway.
After all that though my main gripe was doctors being held in some sort
of God like status, not to be questioned by anyone least of all a NURSE.
Cheers
Pete
>>> "N. Rostami" <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 12:17 >>>
Pete,
I would like to give the benefit of doubt to the GP who has most likely
based his opinion and advice on the symptoms that this gentleman has
presented to him. It is possible for such symptoms to have a sudden
onset, meaning, if he didn't report them at his first visit to his GP,
maybe he did so at his second visit!
Do you really think that it is best to spend one's energy trying to
prove that this gentleman is really only suffering from a fabricated
stress or would you say that you would look at other avenues and options
of resolving this for both sides. By the time you set out to witch hunt,
it will be six months and this gentleman will probably miraculously
recover from his symptoms and ready to return to work!
What the employer is suffering from at this point is that it appears to
have lost face and feels that their authority has been undermined by an
employee who has been clever in playing the system. Maybe, this can be a
lesson for future to look closely at people's requests and reasons as to
why they can't attend work and thus considering policies on sabbaticals.
Meanwhile, the employer is also likely to be losing valuable time
managing this case and valuable money paying out for Sick pay, not to
mention the OH costs. Also, this saga( watched closely by the rest of
the workforce) is creating a negative impact on the ethos of the work
place. Although, there is the other matter of the confidentiality of
individual cases.i.e. no one else at work should be aware of what is
really going on with this gentleman!
The employee has played foul but has found the loophole! However, if
given the choice he would probably prefer to minimise his liability and
any future friction with the management and thus he may be willing to
sit down and discuss the option of the sabbatical as a way out of this
mess. In my experience, sometimes the management who have passed on
these types of problems to OH , and whilst the OH is doing their very
best to follow the right procedures and principles in bringing the
employee back to work asap, suddenly, out of the blue, they strike a
deal with the employee and all OH's hard work turns out to be futile...I
agree that GPs can be challenged but I would chose by battles very
carefully as for instance in this case , this employee does not want to
return to work yet.
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Peter Judge
Sent: 15 February 2007 11:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Whooaa Sue
Point 2 - since when was anybody on thin ice for questioning a doctor,
NO apologies to anyone from this profession but they are not gods, do
get things wrong, evident in this case and it does not take another
doctor to point this out to them.
Med 3's are opinions and no more than that, anyone can question someones
opinion, particularly in this case as the GP if it is the same one who
previously one week before declared him fit to work is now behaving in a
less than ethical manner and the phrase "fraudulent claim"
springs to mind as does
aiding and abetting. HR or Line management could happily question the GP
regarding this med 3, it does not have to be the domain of the OH
practitioner.
You might wish to get a OHP opinion but it should not be because you
feel you cannot question someones opinion, rather that in this case you
do not trust that persons opinion as you have very good reason to
question the ethics and morals of it.
Cheers
Pete
>>> Sue Morley <[log in to unmask]> 15/02/2007 10:41 >>>
Difficult situation.
Few thoughts. 1) What does the companies S/A policy say. 2) Refer to an
OHP with MFOM. They can question a GP cert where as OHA's are on thinner
ice. 3) Get personnel/HR seek the advice of an employment lawyer, he is
after all effectively holding the company to ransom unless medical
opinion
(MFOM) supports his ill health claims.4) It is bizarre for a GP to sign
fit one week only to change his mind the next, did he perhaps see a
different GP in the practice? 4) Does the company have a flexible
working/family friendly policy etc that would cover his request for a
sabbatical. 5) In my experience GP's reports can be notorious for what
they don't say (sorry all those GP's out there) in cases like this. 6)
the company does not have to accommodate long term sickness absence if
this is what it turns into, especially in the light of the denied
request. Hence the need for employment legal advice.
My gut feeling is get a medical opinion from a MFOM it will be worth it
in the long run and then hand back to personnel as it then becomes a
management issue.
Sue
_____
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Harrison-Stone,
SueSent: 15 February 2007 09:27To: [log in to unmask]:
[OCC-HEALTH] Sickness absence
Dear All
One of our engineers requested 6mths sabbatical to get married, do up
his house ready for his new wife AND to set up his own central heating
business.
He said that if his business failed he would still have a job to return
to after the 6mths. He is well known for running his business from work
booking appts etc for out of work time. Half the factory seems to use
his services. He was disciplined for using company time to arrange
appts but that was a year ago so from the point of moving to the second
stage of disciplining that has now lapsed.
His sabbatical request was not granted. A week later he went off sick
with work related stress.
At a meeting he said he felt undervalued, tired and had abdominal pain.
He also said he didn't like his Dept. manager but in practise he
reported into a line manager and rarely had any dealings with the Dept.
manager. He said that he had said to the L/M a week before he went off
sick that he was stressed but the L/M has no record of that and in fact
says the chap had asked for more work!
He then sent in another request for sabbatical leave based this time on
his stress would take 4-6mths to recover from as he was so ill. He is
not on any treatment for anything. He has been offered a change of job
too. I wrote to his GP with the grudging permission of the employee. I
asked the usual question of the GP but also expressing concern that if
he was so ill should he have treatment, did the GP know about the two
requests for sabbaticals and the request for more work and that he did
not report into the manager he allegedly had problems with. I also said
we would offer him a different job and a RTW programme. GP signed him
back to work! Great!
No! The day before he
was due back to work he went to the GP with stress, abdominal pain and
now hypertension result signed off sick for 2wks on beta blockers. GP
says he is stressed. No matter what time of day we call this man is
never at home.
Should have been back today but now is signed off sick again because he
had a 'reaction to his medication. Gp's letter did not acknowledge any
of my concerns including whether the tiredness could be due to the fact
he works f/t here then does out off work job repairing central heating.
His wedding is now three wks away and he has 4wks holiday provisionally
booked as A/L for that. As he is so well known in the factory all the
workforce are looking to see how long he can stay away!
Any suggestions please?
Sorry about the length of the email!
Sue
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
For list archives and documents, go to
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html
FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH
For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net
Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at
http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/
|
