Dear Jacqueline
i suppose on a related point you might say that christians
have a 'linguistic taboo' about the term 'magick' but have always practiced
it - defensive and indeed aggressive - the later might qualify as
'witchcraft'.
The clergy were banned from the practice of magick in mid 4th century and at
various councils from then on - presumably because they kept at it.
The famous
SATOR/AREPO magick square is thought by some to
be an anagram of the Lord's prayer.
see:
Jesus the sorcerer: Exorcist, Prophet of the Apocalypse
By Robert Conner
£12.99/$25 isbn 1869928954
pub date: 14 April 2006
The most complete summation to date of the New Testament evidence for
magical practice by Jesus and the early Christians.
The very notion of Jesus being a sorcerer runs so against the grain of the
Western cultural myth that even non-Christians are likely to find it
far-fetched or even vaguely disturbing. Nevertheless, scholars steadily
accumulated evidence for magi-cal practices in the New Testament throughout
much of the 20th century . It is that ever expanding body of knowledge that
has made this book possible. This book examines the following:
The nature of the earliest Christian documents, the defects of their
trans-mission, and the evidence for the suppression of descriptions of
magical acts.
The closely related problem of the New Testament accounts as historical
sources.
The radically apocalyptic nature of Jesus’ message and the expectations of
the early church.
The failure of the apocalypse to occur and the theological reaction to that
failure.
The role of magic and mystery religion in early Christianity.
A revisiting of the story of the “beloved disciple” and what it may tell us
about Jesus and suppression of evidence about his life.
Documentary Evidence / Infancy Narratives / Confrontation / Resurrection as
Ghost Story /Apocalyptic Prophet / Apocalypse Postponed, / Magic and
Mystery, / Jesus the Magician / Spirit Versus Spirit, / Ecstatic Inner
Circle, / Christian Mysteries, / Secret Gospel of Mark, / Beloved Disciple,
/ On the Use of youth in Magic, / Apocalypse, Magic, and Christianity, /
“son of David.” / Mary Magdalen
-----Original Message-----
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of jacqueline
simpson
Sent: 06 December 2006 23:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Christian/muslim witches
If this 'thread' began with a question about a charm
which names Jesus, it might be relevant for me to
recommend a recent book, Jonathan Roper's 'English
Verbal Charms' (Helsinki, 2005, ISBN 951-41-0968-6).
This discusses a considerable number of traditional
charms (from a database of about 500), a high
proportion being noticeably Christian in their
references. There are pan-European links, especially
for the pre-Reformation ones, which can be hunted up
through his bibliography.
In general, it can be said that traditional magic
intended as helpful to the individual or the community
is (in Europe) rich in Christian elements and
references, and that the practitioners saw no conflict
between (say) healing charms or thief-punishing charms
and their Christian beliefs. I can also recommend the
various books of Owen Davies on Cunning Men/Women for
insights into this. And Will Ryan on Russian folk
magic gives a very similar picture.
I am unfortunately not able to recommend studies on
Islamic magical practice, but I would be prepared to
bet that it dovetails into Islamic religioin in much
the same way. Probably Muslims who are horrified at
the term 'witch' are equating it with some Arabic word
referring to the practice of magic for harmful
anti-social purposes. It's hard enough to discuss
these matters within one's own langusge and culture --
mental translation must make things far worse!
Jacqueline Simpson
--- jason winslade <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I think a lot of this categorization revolves around
> the debate between 'religion' and 'practice' in
> witchcraft. Specifically, that folk practices were
> subsumed under whatever religion ruled the day.
> Mogg's original example seems to me to fall under
> the category, 'use what you're given' - the name of
> power in that context is Jesus. Same reason why
> stolen hosts and other Christian items were used in
> magical spells. The idea is that before the folk
> were converted to Christianity, other names were
> used, Diana, Hecate, for example. Though I'm not
> sure if there's any evidence for that beyond
> fantasy. Makes sense to me, though.
>
> diane yoder <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I can
> also say I've never heard of a "Muslim witch." The
> Muslims I speak to would be rather horrified about
> this as they are against "djinn" and "magic".
>
> A "Christian" witch is scoffed at by other Wiccans
> who seem to by and large (now, I cannot prove this
> academically except to say I've been in a lot of
> Wiccan chats) to laugh at what they perceive as the
> confusion of being a "Christian witch." It seems
> that to some it is akin to simply "being confused"
> about what you want to be, because of the
> longstanding tiff between Christians and witches
> courtesy of the very Christian Sprenger and his
> Malleus Maleficarum. What was spooky to me was the
> introduction, written in 1920 by a Pope who thought
> Sprenger had a great idea in writing the Malleus in
> the first place, and that witch hunting ought to be
> more aggressively pursued than it was.
>
> I am sure there is an anthropological take on this
> too.
>
> Again, looking forward to what the rest of you
> think. As a Wiccan, mine is only one point of view.
> (And I can't believe I just paid 250.00 for the new
> two volume edition of the Malleus Maleficarum newly
> redone and with scholarly notes vis a vis Oxford
> University!!)
>
> Diane Yoder
> MA candidate, Religion and Literature
> Antioch University-McGregor
>
> On 12/2/06, diane yoder < [log in to unmask]>
> wrote:I think also, what needs to be taken into
> account re: Malleus Maleficarum is that the term
> "witch" is a Christian construct. I wonder if those
> who would practice what Mogg described below would
> not have considered themselves "witches" per
> se....it would be other Christians pointing a finger
> and screaming "Witch" that would be the rule of the
> day.
>
> So perhaps in terms of self-identification,
> "witchcraft" as we know it today in which people
> such as myself are no longer afraid to say "I'm a
> witch" (meaning "Wiccan"...is a modern
> construct--and even some Wiccans hesitate to use the
> word "witch" because of its historically negative
> connotations).
>
> During the Salem witchcraft trials, Cotton Mather,
> et. al. were using the "Rules" of European witch
> hunting a la Sprenger et. al. as a guide to
> "identifying" what a witch was/looked like because
> apparently, they didn't know without the "rules."
> (See Mather's Wonders of the Invisible World). So
> would it be proper to even say such rural
> practitioners were self-identified as "witches?"
> Reading "trial" records, it seems these people were
> pretty sincere in their denials that they were
> witches.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Diane Yoder
> Antioch University-McGregor
> Yellow Springs, OH
>
> On 12/1/06, Mandrake of Oxford <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote: Dear Friend
>
> I guess that before the twentieth century most
> european witches were christian -
> although perhaps the theology is unorthodox eg:
> from 'Secret of Secrets':
> 'Hail thou holy herb growing on the ground
> thou heals many a grief and staunces many a wound
> in the name of Jesus Christ I pluck you from the
> ground.'
>
> so perhaps 'pagan' witchcraft is a modern thing?
> and indeed there is no fundamental reason why a
> magician or witch shoould not a christian or indeed
> muslim be ??
> Some sabbatics still have 'christian' affiliations
>
>
> 'love and do what you will'
>
> mogg
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of anna hudson
> Sent: 02 December 2006 08:54
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Christian/muslim
> witches
>
>
>
> What do people think re other ( than pagan
> that is) religious witches, such as christian or
> muslim witches (witch being defined as self
> identified and a practioner of magic/the
> Craft)?Are these taken to be pagan witches who
> include in their pantheon symbols and Gods of the
> 'Great' religions....or ex Christians/muslim who
> have converted to paganism and witchcraft.
> If a christian witch is seen as valid..then what
> can be said about for instance christian muslims?
> If paganism is seen as a religion can a
> christian/muslim witch be???
> Anna
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> From: Khem Caigan <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Society for The Academic Study of
> Magic <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Defining Magic
> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:56:11 -0400
> >Christopher Kimberley doth schriebble:
> >> Magic, as usually defined, is a technology
> which is either
> >>accessible to
> >>everyone or to a set of a population that has
> defining
> >>characteristics.
> >
> >And thus the term, *magike techne*.
> >
> >Cors in Manu Domine,
> >
> >
> >~ Khem Caigan
> ><[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
>
> --
> See Religion and Literature at
> http://northropfryefan.googlepages.com/home
>
> Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night,
> God said: "Let Newton be!", and all was light.
> Alexander Pope (1688-1744) English poet.
>
>
>
> --
> See Religion and Literature at
> http://northropfryefan.googlepages.com/home
>
> Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night,
> God said: "Let Newton be!", and all was light.
> Alexander Pope (1688-1744) English poet.
>
>
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