On 10/13/06, Patrick Mc Manus <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Sorry to interrupt everyone all this navel gazing
> Just wondering here if I am an 'artistically
> > illiterate, perhaps even a craft junkies, my taste is worthless'

I wasn't referring to anyone or anything in particular. I'm just
stating a factual observation that paraphrases what a lot of great
artists said. Here's an example fromt his page
"I'm not comparing my works with theirs, but if you had the paintings
of Kandinsky or Braque or Picasso on auction in a park, how many
people would buy them, even at $100 apiece? One must have a realistic
expectation for art that is real art, as opposed to what is
entertainment."

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/00/9/kiarostami.html


> Yes I am happy it's definitely me -can't poetry just be fun??
> P artistically illiterate P
>

Sure it can be.

I'm not saying anything about you. I don't know you. I'm not claiming
to be a great artist or that my pieces are great works of art. But I
do admire the artists and observe art in what I do.

Now fun is subjective. Let's take for example those empty-minded
entertainments that fill popular culture, I don't know, you name it,
artless movies, books, songs, boy bands, etc that were best sellers
and top of the charts last year. It can be assumed they entertain a
lot of people, fine, no problem with that. Are they obliged to watch
great art works instead and have it forcefed to them? No, that's
pointless and unrealistic, they just won't get it. It would take them
a few books and years of comprehension to learn to appreciate.

Now here are the two key issues, should the artist (someone who cares
for art and follows the great artists) be obliged to care when those
people who are after popular empty-minded entertainment "think
girl/boy bands" say his stuff is crap? More so, should he be obliged
to comform to the "girl/boy band" notion of mindless entertainment?
And even more so, do you think that someone who cares for art would
find those "girl/boy band" (just using it as an example) fun? He'd
more likely squirm.

And the other, is art fun? Does someone who cares for art derive fun
from art? My answer to that is that there's hardly anything in life
that's more fun that art for someone who cares for art.

Many regards.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and
> poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of biloxi andersen
> Sent: 13 October 2006 06:19
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Please excuse me from "critique" duties
>
> On 10/13/06, biloxi andersen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Now, quality control if you write for yourself.
> >
> > We've already established that most people are artistically
> > illiterate, perhaps even craft junkies, their taste is worthless as
> > far as art is concerned and only matters if you want to sell them
> > something or gain their allegiance, and their advice is bad.
> >
> > And we've already established that you could read about the basics of
> > art in a week or so, but it could take you a lifetime to master if
> > ever at all. You know what you need, you don't need anyone to tell you
> > what it is after a little, it just, by its nature, takes a long time
> > to get there. And that's a long time of practice. And that's mindful,
> > meditative practice.
> >
>
> An example might help using one of my pieces. Let's look at craft,
> taste and art, to demonstrate.
>
> He said
> I feel at home in here
> What is it that's wrong with me
> Or there must be
> There must be something wrong with
> A barber, a dentist
> Wherever else he goes
> There must be something wrong with
> A man without a whorehouse
>
> In terms of craft; notice that all the words are simple. Would anyone
> need a dictionary to look up any of these above? There's a lot of
> discipline in that. Is imagism, or other such tools, used to
> distraction that the reader would slug through the text? No. In fact,
> not at all. If not needed, not uesd. There's a lot of discipline that.
>
> Now to the artistically illiterate craft junkies; that seriously would
> fail to impress. It wouldn't show their prowess. In fact, whereas I'd
> take a peace and trim it down to the bare essentials, they'd do the
> opposite. But see, that's a fundamental difference. And the
> fundemental difference is that of art.
>
> So let's see:
> For a start, it's a fictionalisation of a feeling. And
> fictionalisation here is quite a tool. People could relate to a scene
> or a snapshot of a tale more than an abstract idea or instruction.
> Here's a one fictional situation to describe a feeling; a man who
> experiences a feeling that troubles him; that is, of "feeling at home"
> while being at the whorehouse.
> He said - needed for attribution and framing the reference
> I feel at home in here - "I" is to get into straight into the mind of
> someone; much more effective for this intimate idea than had it been
> told in third person. The reader reads it as "I" and is induced to
> empathise. And it's the first word. Then notice how "I feel at home in
> here" is a use of primacy. A main phease is use first. But also notice
> how "here" is used to substitute for the "whorehouse", and the
> whorehouse is the last word in the piece. So that's using both primacy
> and latency. It could've been "I feel at home in the whorehouse". But
> that would've been like aborting an artistic fetus by giving it away
> like that with no intrigue.
> Then what happens between those primacy and latency? Well, delve into
> his mind and emotions. The reader doesn't yet know what "here" is, but
> gets "what is it that's wrong with me" indicating that the
> protagonist, whom the reader is induced to empathise with by using
> first person narrative, is quite troubled by this what-should've-been
> a good feeling. This is important that the person is quite troubled by
> what should've been a good feeling.
> And then "Or there must be". There must be what? Attention is shifted
> here. "There must be something wrong with" blame is shifted from self
> onto? onto what?
>
> A barber, a dentist
> Wherever else he goes
> There must be something wrong with
> A man without a whorehouse
>
> A barber, a dentist are innocuous, legitimate, proscribed places to go
> to. No one would question going there. But not a whorehouse. This is a
> use of contrast. The whorehouse, an illegitimate place to go to, is
> contrasted with the legitimate ones. "Wherever else he goes" indicated
> that it's about a place that he goes to.
>
> With the second "There must be something wrong with" as a
> double-emphasis. He says it twice to contrast with "What is it that's
> wrong with me".
>
> Again, last sentence is a latency. Notice that it's "a whorehouse"
> rather than a brothel. That's a artistic choice and it's important.
> Man is contrasted with "whore", there's a notion of sex, sin, and of
> women, forbidden desires. That's more biological at yet condemned, and
> easier to see than brothel.
>
> So this guy is quite-troubled with feeling at home in the whorehouse
> and wonders what is wrong with him and then wonders ("or there must
> be") that, "wherever else he goes", "there must be something wrong
> with" "a man without a whorehouse". In first narrative to the reader,
> intrigue evoked so the reader is somewhat receptive, curious and
> perhaps empathic. But to what extent empathic? The reader is more
> likely to be conditioned to abide by the common notion that there is
> something wrong with the man who goes to the whorehouse, let alone
> someone who experiences a feeling of being at home while being there.
> It's a somewhat troubling feeling to the man, that he throws at the
> common man, who is likely to be the the reader, who might quite well
> reject it, in much the same way that the man rejects it. which is
> another instance of the reader being induced to empathise with the
> man, twice at once now.
>
> What's the problem that's fictionalised here? I'll leave that to you.
> But it doesn't even need to be made specific and explicit. That's the
> point of fictionalisation. It's the general notion of the problem that
> matters.
>
> There are more elements of art attended to in the piece, but I won't
> detail here. I've written a lot.
>
> So, that's quite a lot of artistic care in what seems, at the face of
> it, quite a little simple piece.
>
> Does it seem that a piece written for oneself has an attention to
> quality to it. I would say yes, through and through.
>
> Would everyone appreciate it? No, for sure. Not everyone is qualified
> enough to, and I say this with assurance. First, those who don't see
> big words in it or three "challenging" images per line won't be
> impressed, but that, without hesitation, as I've outlined above, is
> sheer ignorance. That would've been catering for the needs of the
> artistically-illiterate "poet" rather than the needs of the art
> itself. That I regard, without hesitaiton, as ignorance.
>
> And then there will be those who won't know the difference between
> taste and art. They don't like something so it has to be crap. That
> too, I regard, as ignorance.
>
> Should I care for those people or seek their approval? Heck no!
>
> And then there will be those who are artistically literate who would
> notice and acknowedge the artistic elements in the piece, but, it
> wouldn't suit their taste, and there's no accounting for taste. And
> that's perfectly legitimate.
>
> And then, there's someone who just doesn't relate to the experience
> fictionalised here. And that's legitimate too.
>
> Again, does it show a concern for quality. Yes, I think so. Through
> and through. Would I describe it as a high-quality piece? Yes, in
> fairness, I would. Does this mean I'm arrogant? Nope. It's about the
> piece, not about me, if it wasn't good enough, I'd forget it without
> hesitaiton, but there are good reasons according to objective
> assessment of its artistic concern, regardless of taste, of why I
> think so, which I detailed above.
>
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>  .
>


-- 
Her Lust is Wiser is a book of verse by Biloxi Andersen and Ziad
Noureddine. It is part of ongoing diaries.
http://inkatthedevil.blogspot.com/