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BRITARCH  August 2006

BRITARCH August 2006

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Subject:

Re: Why don't we share more?

From:

David Debono <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:56:32 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (305 lines)

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Broadly my understanding but I thought a
quick reply was more in keeping :-). However a couple of points from running
the site for about fifteen years now and the law keeps changing. Firstly the
only thing that happens "in Law" AIUI is that a work out of copyright is
*only* that, out of copyright. It means that the copyright laws do not apply
any more. It does *not* in the UK anyway mean it is in the public domain; in
the USA it is treated differently and as web sites are international this
poses more problems but we won't go there. That term "public domain" is just
not used in UK law as it has no meaning *in* UK law.

Secondly, as the site is predominently contact details there is no copyright
on someone's address *but* the address is considered "personal information
held on a database" and therefore I have to have procedures in place to
proove that there is a vehicle for people to change this, remove it and such
like within a reasonable time from any request to do this.

So, for example, if you ripped the information from the site and produced a
directory, say, then copyright applies and I could do something about it
certainly if you were getting pecuniary gain from *my* database.

Unfortunately, as you say, one has to be rich to sue people.......

Take care

David D.
The Historical Reenactment Web Site
http://www.histrenact.co.uk
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: British archaeology discussion list 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rob
> Sent: 08 August 2006 09:37
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BRITARCH] Why don't we share more?
> 
> David,
> 
> Two or three points there.  Firstly great site.  Secondly as 
> you say the UK does not have " in the public domain " however 
> the meaning of that is ambigous.  The legal stand point for 
> the UK is that in the public domain means out of copyright.  
> ( yes I checked for my business)  Thirdly as I stated in a 
> reply to Nick facts cannot be copyrighted, the layout and 
> presentation of that database can.  This is why I can legally 
> transcribe Parish Registers which don't go out of copyright 
> until 2030.  Likewise the UK census which for non profit use 
> is free of copyright under  Crown Copyright law however Crown 
> Copyright cannot stop me making money from my own 
> transcription.  I can and then do enforce my own copyright on 
> the layout but cannot enforce this on the facts contained within.
> 
> With this premise in place under UK copyright law ( it was 
> how Dan Brown won his case re plagerism and breach of 
> copyright) the facts held on the old SMR reports such as 2nd 
> century dinarius found at 10002000 cannot nor ever will be in 
> copyright.  Grey literature is something totally different 
> because that is a report of an excavation and works like any 
> book, website etc.
> 
> Now to confuse matters still further and pertaining to the 
> info on your site.  Any information you were given that is 
> copyright the person giving permission does not become your 
> copyright.  Copyright cannot be transferred except under 
> circumstances such as death. There are one or two other exceptions.
> 
> We could get even deeper and debate intellectual copyright 
> but I don't think that it would enhance this debate further.
> 
> As I recently said on a genealogical mailing list copyright 
> is a very greay and ambigous area and until each point is 
> proven in court it always will be. 
> Who is going to have the money and the time to do this?
> 
> Rob
> http://acorngenealogy.co.uk
> http://www.enchantedtimes.co.uk
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Debono" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [BRITARCH] Why don't we share more?
> 
> 
> > Don't often post here but my understanding is as follows.
> >
> > It is the way that the facts are used that is copyright. 
> For example any
> > datum itself is not but if I use several of these in a 
> piece of work, and
> > putting databases together *is* a piece of work, the result becomes
> > copyright not the constituent parts.
> >
> > For example the database at the site below is made up of 
> facts that have
> > been made known to me however the result, whilst publically 
> available is
> > neither "in the public domain" (does not exist in UK law) 
> and is copyright
> > me. However it also has *other* requirements as regards to factual
> > information pertaining to the information held but that 
> does not infringe
> > any copyright I may have.
> >
> > Take care
> >
> > David D.
> > The Historical Reenactment Web Site
> > http://www.histrenact.co.uk
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: British archaeology discussion list
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
> >> Sent: 08 August 2006 09:15
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [BRITARCH] Why don't we share more?
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> I am not an expert on this - it confuses me still.
> >> the best I can do is refer you to this web page
> >> http://ahds.ac.uk/copyrightfaq.htm#faq1? look at the table on
> >> what is copyright and you will databases are covered.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> best wishes
> >>
> >> Nick Boldrini
> >> Historic Environment Record Officer
> >> Heritage Section
> >> Countryside Service
> >> North Yorkshire County Council
> >> County Hall
> >> Northallerton
> >> DL7 8AH
> >> Direct Dial (01609) 532331
> >>
> >> Conserving North Yorkshire's heritage - encouraging
> >> sustainable access www.northyorks.gov.uk/archaeology
> >>
> >> This email is personal. It is not authorised by or sent on
> >> behalf of North Yorkshire County Council, however, the
> >> Council has the right and does inspect emails sent from and
> >> to its computer system. This email is the sole responsibility
> >> of the sender
> >>
> >> >>> [log in to unmask] 08/08/2006 08:58:53 >>>
> >> Nick,
> >>
> >> Can you explain how they can copyright fact please which
> >> under copyright law cannot be done?  The layout of the HER's
> >> can be copyrighted but not the
> >>
> >> factual information contained within
> >>
> >> Rob
> >> http://acorngenealogy.co.uk
> >> http://www.enchantedtimes.co.uk
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Nick Boldrini" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 8:52 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [BRITARCH] Why don't we share more?
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ok I'll bite ; )
> >> >
> >> > Does the data belong to everyone?
> >> >
> >> > It is in fact covered by Copyright, and various 
> regulations such as
> >> the
> >> > Environmental Information Regulations which means it is not
> >> as simple
> >> as
> >> > you suggest ie it belongs to everyone, which means that 
> permissions
> >> need
> >> > to be sorted out for use. This is why, for example, the NMR/ALGAO
> >> > Licensing Agreement for use of NMR data by HER's is complicated -
> >> trust
> >> > me, you don't want to know.
> >> >
> >> > Also, organisations have invested significant resources in
> >> developing
> >> > their HER, to such an extent that it is a desirable resource for
> >> others
> >> > to use. To simply give all that away might be considered rash.
> >> >
> >> > That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to do what you 
> suggest, but
> >> it
> >> > is going to be complictaed to work out permissions.
> >> >
> >> > In practice, these problems are not insurmountable, but 
> they would
> >> need
> >> > sorting out with each HER seperately, because each host
> >> organisation
> >> > would have a different take on the solution.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > best wishes
> >> >
> >> > Nick Boldrini
> >> > Historic Environment Record Officer
> >> > Heritage Section
> >> > Countryside Service
> >> > North Yorkshire County Council
> >> > County Hall
> >> > Northallerton
> >> > DL7 8AH
> >> > Direct Dial (01609) 532331
> >> >
> >> > Conserving North Yorkshire's heritage - encouraging sustainable
> >> access
> >> > www.northyorks.gov.uk/archaeology
> >> >
> >> > This email is personal. It is not authorised by or sent on
> >> behalf of
> >> > North Yorkshire County Council, however, the Council has
> >> the right and
> >> > does inspect emails sent from and to its computer system.
> >> This email
> >> > is the sole responsibility of the sender
> >> >
> >> >>>> "BAJRWebsite.ORG" <[log in to unmask]> 07/08/2006 20:31:12 >>>
> >> > Here is a small but deadly question...   IF online data 
> from SMRs /
> >> > HERs and
> >> > NMRs is supposed to be publicly accessible  then why not make the
> >> data
> >> > available as feeds or data dumps to other websites...  
> where surely
> >> > the concept is to distribute the data, rather than try to
> >> protect data
> >> > which is supposed to belong to everyone anyway?
> >> >
> >> > ;-))
> >> >
> >> > So... for example...  why could I not present an RSS feed of all
> >> roman
> >> > sites
> >> > viewed on my site via a map based technology (ie Google Map)
> >> >
> >> > David Connolly
> >> > British Archaeological Jobs Resource
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > WARNING
> >> >
> >> > This E-mail and any attachments may contain information that is
> >> > confidential or privileged, and is intended solely for the
> >> use of the
> >>
> >> > named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be
> >> aware
> >> > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken is
> >> > prohibited and may be unlawful.
> >> >
> >> > Any opinions expressed are those of the author and not 
> necessarily
> >> the
> >> > view of the Council.
> >> >
> >> > North Yorkshire County Council.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/411 - Release Date:
> >> 07/08/2006
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> WARNING
> >>
> >> This E-mail and any attachments may contain information that
> >> is confidential or privileged, and is intended solely for the
> >> use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended
> >> recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying,
> >> distribution or any action taken is prohibited and may be unlawful.
> >>
> >> Any opinions expressed are those of the author and not
> >> necessarily the view of the Council.
> >>
> >> North Yorkshire County Council.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/411 - Release 
> Date: 07/08/2006
> >
> > 
> 

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