When I say "work" I didn't mean that it had to be about relationships at
work but just about work itself. People can seek some kind of talking
therapy just to deal with issues of gaining confidence, even travelling to
work in strange cities, or the effect that not having work has on one's
life. So, nothing to do with relationships necessarily. But no, I don't
think it is easy to dismiss things like "work" that are so important. I
think it is a sign of where you - and many psychologists - are coming from -
your standpoint. Once you have the career, it is relationships that become
important. In fact, most people up there would say relationships are what
are most important in life - just as you did - and that simply reflects the
power you have to impose your own point of view.
I didn't know psychology was a "talk therapy." I though it was more about
using the rorsach test and other psychological tests to figure out where a
person was at, then apply the dsm and label them. If this govt document
suggested that people wanted more talk therapy why on earth wouldf they
suggest ten thousand psychologists. That is so ridiculous! - even if some
of them dod do talk therapy. There are so many other kinds of therapy. What
is it with these people!
Re injustice: some people are more vulnerable than others to injustice. eg,
speaking of women, those without a husband; or without property, (or job, of
course) or without family nearby; or, if they are older, and not sexually
active. How do you fit in there? I have nothing. Just two degrees - a 4
year BA and a 2 yr MA. They took me longer, but that's what they are. And I
am treated in this country like a piece of shit.
Oh, did we forget anger management - psychologists must be very good at
trying to pass that one off on the victim, don't you think?
And I think that saying sorry isn't enough. Not when so much damage has been
done to my life here. Things aren't that much better in Canada, but here is
worse - the class system is worse. I live in despair, but no fucking
psychologist can help me.
I recall someone in Canada who was doing research on a man who, one day, up
and killed his wife and teenage children. He had lost his job and their
beautiful home and middle class lifestyle would have been the next to go. So
he decided to end it all for them so they would not have to suffer. In the
study this researcher conducted, she explored the feelings of people in the
community to see how they coped with tragedy. One said, We had no idea!
another said: If only he had come to us! And so on. I know, from experience,
how it works. People fall away from you. They don't invite you, they don't
make you feel welcome. But they do keep sending literature - from clubs you
used to go to, as if you were still welcome but declined to go. They do
cruel things, say cruel things, and then, what do you suppose they say when
you stop looking at people, when you stop trying to interact with them to
protect yourself. I know how it is. And that man's decision to end his
family's life may not have seemed fair, but the pain they would have had to
endure, and the reduced quality of life, makes one wonder. People don't help
when they see you being forced down the social ladder.
You say, "injustices do happen" - obviously not in your life to the extent
it has in mine. Don't pretend you know what I am going through and what I
have already been through, at the university here and in this community,
which works to serve the university. Just carry on as you always have, and
ignore what's going on..
And I shall continue to write on Marc Lepine and the Montreal Massacre -
essay revised today.
Sue McPherson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Hi Sue,
Thanks for your response. No, I wasn't feeling victimised. And I agree that
there is a risk of me just talking to other psychologists, so it is good to
have you and Mike active on the list. I agree that psychologists in work do
have power, and I worry both about the responsibilities that go with that
power and also about the risk of abusing it..As Mike said on another
posting, community psychologists tend to be very critical of ourselves - I
feel that it is important to be critical and to remain open to criticism,
but also to be forgiving, supportive and enouraging both to ourselves and to
others who share socially inclusive values but with whom we may not always
completely agree.
In my last posting I was just musing aloud really about my worries, and
wanting to keep the debate going. . I am concerned about how we all - (I as
an individual, us list members as people interested in psychology and all
of us as members of society, and the government) are going to respond to
Lord Layard's proposals and was stimulated to write by David's comments
about the need for different sorts of training in psychology. . Of course
you are right - work is hugely important. Life and humans are so complex -
as soon as we focus on one aspect ( eg relationships - and I meant all our
relationships, including but not only personal relationships) it is easy in
doing so to turn attention away from other things that are also important
( eg work).
In the bit where I mentioned talking therapies for people who are
psychologically distressed - there I was referring to Layard, who, in his
government report, uses evidence that people want greater access to
psychological therapies or talking therapies as part of his justification
for arguing that there should be more public money spent on training more
psychologists.
Regarding employment - I think that there have been good legislation
improvements recently regarding equal opportunities and, where these are
properly applied, it should be ability, skills and knowledge that count;
it's bad in all sorts of ways to experience injustice in employment. And of
course we all know that policies don't always get properly applied and that
injustices do happen. And we are all vulnerable to such injustices - I am
sorry that you have had bad experiences in this regard.
For those who are interested in "New Ways of Working as Applied
Psychologists" there is what is called a stakeholder conference, run by the
British Psychological Society (BPS) coming up very soon (14th july) in
Wolverhampton - further information can be found on
http://www.bps.org.uk/the-society/boardscommittees/professional-practice-boa
rd/new_ways_of_working_for_applied_psychologists.cfm-
Good wishes,
Annie
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue McPherson
Sent: Sun 02/07/2006 13:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Annie Mitchell
I hope you are not feeling victimized because I was critical of the motives
of psychology and other therapies in society. It should not be forgotten
that you are the ones with the power - to encourage others to be inclusive,
or to dissuade them by your own behaviour. One way you can make a difference
is to respond directly to those who approach you with their concerns. I
would appreciate it if you did that, to my post. If you want to challenge
social forces at work, that's probably one of the best ways of doing it.
Otherwise, it is simply you (psychologists) talking amongst yourselves about
"them."
I think that psychology should be, or could be, a "talking therapy." I'm not
sure what you're getting at when you mention that subject - that I am one of
the psychologically distressed? It is a topic I approached in my post, if I
recall correctly. It's actually work that can underly our well-being, in my
view, and not simply personal relationships, as you suggest. That's probably
an old-fashioned view that personal relationships count more. But for people
who are single, it's work that counts. Believe me! Again, this seems to be
an indication of social problems being approached from one perspective only.
To working people with spouses, what's important appears to be the
relationship. But it might not be to people with neither the job nor the
relationship.
And communities don't tend to be inclusive of people with neither of these
(job nor relationship). So how are you going to challenge that kind of
thinking unless you start doing it yourself - being inclusive on a
discussion list and not simply responding to other psychologists?
You are the ones with power, as I said. You set an example by your actions.
You can simply sit up there and do nothing, and people will follow your
example. Of course personal relationships are important. I agree with that.
But having a job is what gives you the identity to be able to relate to
people on a level other than "underclass," (unless one is independently
wealthy, or can demonstrate ownership of property, or membership of the
"right" family).
To some people, it is the job that matters. And I know this because it is
the job - the lack of one - that holds me back. I applied to the position
mentioned on this list recently, for Nigel Wellman, but even with all the
research I've done, what chance do I have? You're right, it is relationships
that count. One needs the relationships to get the job. Or is it youth that
counts. And sexual attractiveness, and all the possibilities that holds with
it. Add that one in as another factor I am lacking, by today's standards.
Yes, the relationship is important. It's too bad that it is what counts in
todays' world, and not ability, knowledge, and experience. The
relationship gets you the job, and the job enables one to form new
relationships, and so on, up the ladder to success.
Sue McPherson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Lord Layard, whose government report advocates training more clinical
psychologists so as to support the provision of more psychological
therapies, provides an analysis in his book Happiness (2005), of why in most
Western countries, including the UK, depression rates seem to be rising and
happiness rates not rising despite overall increases in material well-being.
As an economist he has to express surprise - political economy expectations
had been that increases in GDP would bring increases in citizen well-being
overall, yet that simply hasn't happened, at least not in the arena of
psychological well-being. He looks at the psychological literature and
concludes that social comparisions are an underlying mechanism: He says "We
have a good idea why happiness has risen less than was expected: our norms
have risen, as other people's incomes have risen and likewise our own
experience of comfort. The central mechanism at work here is our habit of
comparision." Now, one possible route for an economist interested in
psychology to follow on unearthing this insight would be to start thinking
about how psychology could help in challenging the social forces at work
that promote unhelpful expectations and aspirations and that fuel
inequalitites, social divisions and war ( eg the role of advertising, the
role of the media, the role of big business and shareholder economics in
structuring western society towards ever increasing expecations of share
holder rewards, the role of social denial in the face of huge evidence that
unsustainable levels of consumption are fuelling environmental degradation
and climate change). Indeed, there is plenty in his analysis to take us
along the route in exploring these issues. However, his advisors from
mainstream psychology are not too good at providing help with all of this.
Psychology as it has been advanced in the west is largely ( though not
entirely) the cognitive psychology of the individual, with a significant
interest in clinical psychology in how to change people's thinking -- and
given political avoidance of tackling the vested interests at work in
advancing the social inequalities underpinning human distress, it is
unsurprising that it is psychological therapy (changing individuals'
"faulty" or "unhelpful" ways of thinking) that is currently attractive
politically. If we concentrate on getting the population happy with things
as they are, there is less political threat to those who stand to benefit
from things being as they are.
Yet at the same time, there is plenty of policy analysis in the Uk currently
that acknowledges the need for more socially just services and provision -
the NHS and public services are inceasingly asked to contribute to efforts
challenging social inequalites at a service provision level - there are
numerous examples of policy initiatives such as the Ten Essential Shared
Capabailites of the Whole of the Mental Health Workforce which require us to
work in ways advocated by community psychology - promoting partnership.
prevention and empowerment ... there is lots of scope for challenging or
providing a counter-balance to the current pre-occupation with individual
therapy. However, since community psychology is so marginal to professional
structures and therefore has no sort of political voice, we don't have much
if any influence - currently the loudest voices in the applied clinical
field are those of cognitive behaviour therapists. I fully agree with David
that we need more community psychology at all levels of psychology
learning.
Of course it is the case that people who are psychologically distressed are
asking for more talking therapies. We all know that human relationships
underpin our well-being ( indeed Layard's own analysis summarises some of
the evidence that this is so). But the evidence is that when psychological
therapies are helpful they work through the provision of effective
therapeutic relationships. But the social danger in focussing too much on
the provision of "expert" relationships is that we thereby contribute to the
diminishing of naturally occuring helpful relationships within
communities - we perpetuate the idea that people cannot help one another but
instead must rely on "expert" help. Yet as David points out, we know that
non-experts can be just as helpful as trained professionals. (But trained
professionals are not keen on exploring that further - we want to belive
that our own therapies are special and complex thereby justifying our own
existence). Yet there is evidence, for example in the field of psychological
debriefing after disasters, that expert interventions, applied
uncriitically, can make things better rather than worse, apparently by
interfering with naturally occuring social healing processes.
I worry as a trainer in clinical psychology that the debate is polarised -
how can we contribute to advancing our social and psychological
understanding of the deeper forces underpinning human distress, while at the
same time adressing the deep human need for sympathetic humane response to
psychological distress in human individuals. Where is the space for public
health psychology? At the same time, how do we stop ourselves simply serving
our own vested interests - especially given the need to justify the
relatively large salaries that clinical psychologists earn? And how we we
bring together a genuinely social applied psychology given the pressures and
divides within our own discipline - and the various envies and
disgruntlements between the different branches of psychology? And how do we
genuinely work together with our non-professional psychology colleagues/
comrades to contribute to social change? I am aware that many clinical
psychologists ( including many that I have been involved in training) want
to apply their critical knowledge of community psycholgy in practice yet
experience difficulties in doing so because current NHS employment pressures
along with uncritical management acceptance of the evidence base of what
works in practice limits the scope of their activities. It is hard ( though
not impossible) to promote social change from within - it seems to me that
we need to work together both within and without professional structures if
we are to tip the balance away from simplistic solutions towards more
complex analyses of what will improve our collective well-being.
Annie
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of David Fryer
Sent: Sat 01/07/2006 10:54
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Apologies if my previous posting was misleading for some.
I am indeed based at Stirling University myself but I certainly did not
provide a link to the Stirling site to stimulate interest in careers via
that route. I drew attention to that masters course in the Department of
psychology at Stirling, as part of the debate re 10,000 extra psychologists,
because it is an example of the newer courses I expect to see
proliferating - they are far shorter than clinical courses and so the
graduates are far cheaper to produce. Such shorter courses will inevitably
cover less material in less depth than three year clinical doctorates
because so much shorter and will provide a new workforce of psychologists
for the NHS which is cheaper than employing clinical psychologists.
Of course one can take different positions on such courses. From a critical
perspective they share many of the problems of mainstream clinical
psychology: both are primarily are about 'treating' individuals within a
medical model frame of reference through intra-psychic change rather than
preventing or addressing collective causes of distress within a social
justice frame of reference through societal change. Both collude with victim
blaming. Some might argue that three years of clinical training provides
more scope for engaging with more approaches to intervention (some clinical
courses include modules on community psychology) and more scope for critical
reflection on the 'scientific practitioner' mantra. However, others might
argue that because it is shorter the training for a one year masters has
less chance for trainees to be socialised into problematic clinical ways and
less opportunities for the effectiveness of trainees to be diminished than
clinical training (thinking of Durlak's classic work suggesting that non
professionals are often more effective than professionals in addressing
psychological difficulties).
What I would really like to see is more opportunities to learn about
critical community* psychology in the UK as there are in many other
countries. Regrettably I cannot currently recommend Stirling in that regard
to members of this list. An established undergraduate module in critical
community psychology has recently been discontinued by the University and
whilst there is some really good postgraduate critical community psychology
going on here now that particular work will be drawing to a close within a
few months. Whilst future postgraduate supervision in critical community
psychology is available in theory, in practice funding is very difficult
indeed to get. Further community psychological praxis at Stirling involving
more personnel depends, as elsewhere, upon the availability of external
funding but such funding seldom allows genuinely critical praxis for obvious
reasons - why would the powerful fund work fundamentally devoted to
depowering it?
David
* interesting social psychology at Stirling is developing following the
relatively recent appointment of Alex Gillespie
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue McPherson
Sent: Fri 30/06/2006 13:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
. . . . .
Nevertheless, you will have many interested people (in careers, probably)
looking at the Stirling site. It would be better, I am sure, if society is
going to get stuck with more top-down cures that there is more variety. .
. .. Are you at Stirling, by the way
Sue McPherson
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Swindlehurst <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
No spelling mistake (on this occassion) with my use of the word 'canon'.
This was a reference to the power of religion. The 'barons' refer to those
who mostly control our social and economic structures as well put by Cathy
and David below. The intended construction and advance of the 10k may help a
little toward enlightening the big guns but I fear it is more likely to
shield and prolong their reign at even greater loss to us all, including
themselves. Our species and planet cannot cope with these 'valley of death'
conflicts and inequalities indefinately. I just hope we can come up with a
universal light giving brigade before it is too late for all of us. My hopes
for this are currently largely with list members and your allies - most
people on this planet I should imagine.
Mike S
----- Original Message -----
From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Who would train the 10,000 psychologists? Yet more psychologists (to be
employed and trained to train) of course.
Would they come from the same school . . . . I would bet on training
primarily to deliver cognitive behaviour therapy to people diagnosed as
'anxious' or 'depressed' . Much easier (and politically acceptable) to offer
people psychological snake oil than to change our society to remove social
causes of psychological distress and physical illness like unemployment,
stressful employment, domestic violence, racism, heterosexism, disabling
practices . . . . .
If you want to get a glimpse of the likely future have a look at the MSc
Psychological Therapy in Primary Care at Stirling University: "A variety of
studies by central government and professional bodies have identified the
growing demand for psychological interventions for adults presenting with
common mental health disorders (e.g. anxiety and depression) in NHS Primary
care. There is also widespread recognition of the difficulties in meeting
that demand. This Masters program, delivered jointly by the Universities of
Stirling and Dundee has been designed by National Health Service (NHS)
professionals and experienced academics to train people to deliver
psychological therapies for common mental health disorders in adults in
Primary Care." <http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php>
http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php
To get back to Tennyson . . . I too struggled with the light brigade
comparison, find the poem's images repugnant on a variety of levels and
certainly do not see the 10K psychologists as the innocent victims. Cathy
McCormack has spoken powerfully of the 'war without bullets' being waged
against people lower down the social hierarchy by people higher up it . . .
.a war being fought with brief cases, policies leading to widening
inequalities, stigma, disabling practices and psy-techniques which lead
people to internalise understandings of themselves and their settings which
are damaging to them and serve the interests of the status quo. So if we are
to think in terms of the charge of the light brigade at all, I suggest
imagining those advancing into the valley of death as being those millions
of our fellow citizens who epidemiologists have repeatedly shown have
shorter, less healthy, more brutalised lives due to a variety of forms of
societal inequality and imagine the the 10,000 psychologists as camped on
the sides of the valley operating the CBT cannon to the left of them, the
person centred cannon to the right of them, the stress management cannon in
front of them and the positive psychology cannon behind them
As for Marx . . .. I don't know about others but if my work was described
as Marxist I would take it as a compliment . . .
David
David Fryer
Community Psychology Group
University of Stirling
FK9 4LA
Scotland
+44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
+44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
Sent: 29 June 2006 1:53 pm
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
I don't know who you are or what you do. Sounds Marxist to me. I can't
come up with a different metaphor at this moment but how about just not
seeing the world in terms of them and "us" with psychologists the innocent
victims in all this.
Does not anyone know the theory behind this - that as people are rewarded
they will align themselves with the oppressors? Psychologists can do harm as
well as good, as any of us can. But they do have a lot of power.
I would want to ask, who is going to train all these psychologists? Are they
all going to come from the same school - the same way of thinking. Wouldn't
it be better to have a variety of mental health professionals - if there has
to be - to deal with different kinds of people - psychoanalysts,
psychotherapists, psychiatrists, trained women's counsellors, and so on.
It's frightening to think of so many psychologists wandering the social
community seeking out new "victims" to indoctrinate into their way of
thinking - particularly if they've all studied and come from the perspective
of behaviourism.
Sue McPherson
Sociology (social-psychology and women's studies), envisioning wannabee
psychologists rubbing their hands with glee.
----- Original Message -----
From: Serdar M. Degirmencioglu <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Well put...
Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Swindlehurst <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:21:15 PM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
Into the valley of death rode the ten thousand - canons to the left of them,
barons to the right of them. Yet more measures to protect the big guns who
are destroying all of us.
Mike S
----- Original Message -----
From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
Why 10,000 psychologists needed?
In his paper, The Role of the Psychologist, Ignacio Martin-Baro cited French
psychologist, Richelle, as asking Why psychologists?, why the quiet
proliferation of a new species and Deleule as offering an insightful reply
psychology offers an alternative solution to social conflicts: it tries to
change the individual while preserving the social order, or, in the best of
cases, generating the illusion that, perhaps as the individual changes, so
will the social order. Martin Baro commented when looking dispassionately at
the place some psychological concepts occupy in the dominant political and
cultural discourse, or when pondering the role played by the majority of
psychologists in our countries, one has to concede that Deleule makes a lot
of sense (Aron and Corne, 1994:37).
Aron, A. and Corne, S. (Editors) (1994). Writings for a Liberation
Psychology: Ignacio Martin-Baro. Harvard University Press: Cambridge , Mass.
David
David Fryer
Community Psychology Group
University of Stirling
FK9 4LA
Scotland
+44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
+44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
Sent: 23 June 2006 1:38 pm
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
Or, people could respond on this list, if they don't mind not making "rapid
response." What do you think, Petra? You must have an opinion on this,
surely.
Sue McPherson
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