----- Original Message -----
From: "Kasper" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: snap 26 VII 2006
>I can see how the motive of that haiku example might be misconstrued.
> :-P no ill will intended whatsoever!
>
> On 27/07/06, Kasper <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Douglas:
>>
>> both of these poems show an affinity for (poetic) language, & it's a
>> credit to you, but at the same time that's part of the reason why I
>> would call these mediocre haiku at best. while the urge to use
>> metaphor & a form of language that, however strainless, is clearly
>> poetic is a big one, it's my opinion that it's an urge to be ignored &
>> circumvented when writing haiku. the abstract loses its strength in a
>> haiku, because it isn't a natural place for it to be. "Think of my
>> dead dust" is a line that would be (look sound) brilliant in an
>> 'actual' poem, but it's too declarative & perhaps lofty to be
>> effective in a haiku. the first of these two also begins with a
>> reference to a societal phenomenon, which would make this much closer
>> to a senryu than a haiku despite its grimness (a haiku is a
>> continuation of an experience in nature, mentioning the moon doesn't
>> really cut it).
>>
>> the second is more in keeping with the momentariness & imagistic sight
>> of haiku, & my qualm with it isn't the same as with the first of
>> these. it's rather that it very clearly is not an image conveyed for
>> the sake of experience or connection to the depicted moment _itself_,
>> but for the sake of symbolism. Carlin said "I leave symbolism for the
>> symbol-minded", & while I don't think he meant it universally that
>> quote is fitting when it comes to interpreting the haiku spirit.
>> tangibility, visuality, connectedness are traits of haiku.
>>
>> also, if by 'double haiku' you mean these two poems should be seen as
>> a single one, without a sense of continuity I don't think it's a good
>> idea. I'm not a fan of 'long' or 'multiple' haiku anyway, it seems
>> completely counter to what a haiku experience is.
>>
>>
>> Frederick:
>>
>> I agree completely with your suggestions, should Douglas choose to
>> abandon the haiku aspect of this/these altogether. :)
>> worth a mention here is that haiku traditionally, sensibly, are never
>> titled. the closest thing to a title would be a short phrase
>> describing the scenario/situation of the haiku (such as Issa's "At my
>> daughter's grave, thirty days after her death". Issa is known for his
>> playful, often humorously morbid & liberal haiku, he's worth checking
>> out: http://www.poemhunter.com/kobayashi-issa/poet-9275/ . a searing
>> example (!):
>>
>> Writing shit about new snow
>> for the rich
>> is not art.
>>
Kasper - I know nothing about haikus, and I'm curious: if traditional haikus
were not titled how were they categorized, collected? Were they numbered?
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