I am guilty of making wrong judgements on people I know little or nothing
about. Those I attack today I may sorely need tomorrow.
Mike S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue McPherson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
> When I say "work" I didn't mean that it had to be about relationships at
> work but just about work itself. People can seek some kind of talking
> therapy just to deal with issues of gaining confidence, even travelling to
> work in strange cities, or the effect that not having work has on one's
> life. So, nothing to do with relationships necessarily. But no, I don't
> think it is easy to dismiss things like "work" that are so important. I
> think it is a sign of where you - and many psychologists - are coming
> from -
> your standpoint. Once you have the career, it is relationships that become
> important. In fact, most people up there would say relationships are what
> are most important in life - just as you did - and that simply reflects
> the
> power you have to impose your own point of view.
>
> I didn't know psychology was a "talk therapy." I though it was more about
> using the rorsach test and other psychological tests to figure out where a
> person was at, then apply the dsm and label them. If this govt document
> suggested that people wanted more talk therapy why on earth wouldf they
> suggest ten thousand psychologists. That is so ridiculous! - even if some
> of them dod do talk therapy. There are so many other kinds of therapy.
> What
> is it with these people!
>
> Re injustice: some people are more vulnerable than others to injustice.
> eg,
> speaking of women, those without a husband; or without property, (or job,
> of
> course) or without family nearby; or, if they are older, and not sexually
> active. How do you fit in there? I have nothing. Just two degrees - a 4
> year BA and a 2 yr MA. They took me longer, but that's what they are. And
> I
> am treated in this country like a piece of shit.
>
> Oh, did we forget anger management - psychologists must be very good at
> trying to pass that one off on the victim, don't you think?
>
> And I think that saying sorry isn't enough. Not when so much damage has
> been
> done to my life here. Things aren't that much better in Canada, but here
> is
> worse - the class system is worse. I live in despair, but no fucking
> psychologist can help me.
>
> I recall someone in Canada who was doing research on a man who, one day,
> up
> and killed his wife and teenage children. He had lost his job and their
> beautiful home and middle class lifestyle would have been the next to go.
> So
> he decided to end it all for them so they would not have to suffer. In the
> study this researcher conducted, she explored the feelings of people in
> the
> community to see how they coped with tragedy. One said, We had no idea!
> another said: If only he had come to us! And so on. I know, from
> experience,
> how it works. People fall away from you. They don't invite you, they don't
> make you feel welcome. But they do keep sending literature - from clubs
> you
> used to go to, as if you were still welcome but declined to go. They do
> cruel things, say cruel things, and then, what do you suppose they say
> when
> you stop looking at people, when you stop trying to interact with them to
> protect yourself. I know how it is. And that man's decision to end his
> family's life may not have seemed fair, but the pain they would have had
> to
> endure, and the reduced quality of life, makes one wonder. People don't
> help
> when they see you being forced down the social ladder.
>
> You say, "injustices do happen" - obviously not in your life to the
> extent
> it has in mine. Don't pretend you know what I am going through and what I
> have already been through, at the university here and in this community,
> which works to serve the university. Just carry on as you always have, and
> ignore what's going on..
>
> And I shall continue to write on Marc Lepine and the Montreal Massacre -
> essay revised today.
>
> Sue McPherson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> Hi Sue,
>
> Thanks for your response. No, I wasn't feeling victimised. And I agree
> that
> there is a risk of me just talking to other psychologists, so it is good
> to
> have you and Mike active on the list. I agree that psychologists in work
> do
> have power, and I worry both about the responsibilities that go with that
> power and also about the risk of abusing it..As Mike said on another
> posting, community psychologists tend to be very critical of ourselves -
> I
> feel that it is important to be critical and to remain open to criticism,
> but also to be forgiving, supportive and enouraging both to ourselves and
> to
> others who share socially inclusive values but with whom we may not
> always
> completely agree.
>
> In my last posting I was just musing aloud really about my worries, and
> wanting to keep the debate going. . I am concerned about how we all - (I
> as
> an individual, us list members as people interested in psychology and
> all
> of us as members of society, and the government) are going to respond to
> Lord Layard's proposals and was stimulated to write by David's comments
> about the need for different sorts of training in psychology. . Of course
> you are right - work is hugely important. Life and humans are so
> complex -
> as soon as we focus on one aspect ( eg relationships - and I meant all
> our
> relationships, including but not only personal relationships) it is easy
> in
> doing so to turn attention away from other things that are also important
> ( eg work).
>
> In the bit where I mentioned talking therapies for people who are
> psychologically distressed - there I was referring to Layard, who, in his
> government report, uses evidence that people want greater access to
> psychological therapies or talking therapies as part of his justification
> for arguing that there should be more public money spent on training more
> psychologists.
>
> Regarding employment - I think that there have been good legislation
> improvements recently regarding equal opportunities and, where these are
> properly applied, it should be ability, skills and knowledge that count;
> it's bad in all sorts of ways to experience injustice in employment. And
> of
> course we all know that policies don't always get properly applied and
> that
> injustices do happen. And we are all vulnerable to such injustices - I am
> sorry that you have had bad experiences in this regard.
>
> For those who are interested in "New Ways of Working as Applied
> Psychologists" there is what is called a stakeholder conference, run by
> the
> British Psychological Society (BPS) coming up very soon (14th july) in
> Wolverhampton - further information can be found on
> http://www.bps.org.uk/the-society/boardscommittees/professional-practice-boa
> rd/new_ways_of_working_for_applied_psychologists.cfm-
>
> Good wishes,
>
>
> Annie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue
> McPherson
> Sent: Sun 02/07/2006 13:08
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
> Annie Mitchell
>
> I hope you are not feeling victimized because I was critical of the
> motives
> of psychology and other therapies in society. It should not be forgotten
> that you are the ones with the power - to encourage others to be
> inclusive,
> or to dissuade them by your own behaviour. One way you can make a
> difference
> is to respond directly to those who approach you with their concerns. I
> would appreciate it if you did that, to my post. If you want to challenge
> social forces at work, that's probably one of the best ways of doing it.
> Otherwise, it is simply you (psychologists) talking amongst yourselves
> about
> "them."
>
> I think that psychology should be, or could be, a "talking therapy." I'm
> not
> sure what you're getting at when you mention that subject - that I am one
> of
> the psychologically distressed? It is a topic I approached in my post, if
> I
> recall correctly. It's actually work that can underly our well-being, in
> my
> view, and not simply personal relationships, as you suggest. That's
> probably
> an old-fashioned view that personal relationships count more. But for
> people
> who are single, it's work that counts. Believe me! Again, this seems to
> be
>an indication of social problems being approached from one perspective
>only.
> To working people with spouses, what's important appears to be the
> relationship. But it might not be to people with neither the job nor the
> relationship.
>
> And communities don't tend to be inclusive of people with neither of these
> (job nor relationship). So how are you going to challenge that kind of
> thinking unless you start doing it yourself - being inclusive on a
> discussion list and not simply responding to other psychologists?
>
> You are the ones with power, as I said. You set an example by your
> actions.
> You can simply sit up there and do nothing, and people will follow your
> example. Of course personal relationships are important. I agree with
> that.
> But having a job is what gives you the identity to be able to relate to
> people on a level other than "underclass," (unless one is independently
> wealthy, or can demonstrate ownership of property, or membership of the
> "right" family).
>
> To some people, it is the job that matters. And I know this because it is
> the job - the lack of one - that holds me back. I applied to the position
> mentioned on this list recently, for Nigel Wellman, but even with all the
> research I've done, what chance do I have? You're right, it is
> relationships
> that count. One needs the relationships to get the job. Or is it youth
> that
> counts. And sexual attractiveness, and all the possibilities that holds
> with
> it. Add that one in as another factor I am lacking, by today's standards.
> Yes, the relationship is important. It's too bad that it is what counts in
> todays' world, and not ability, knowledge, and experience. The
> relationship gets you the job, and the job enables one to form new
> relationships, and so on, up the ladder to success.
>
> Sue McPherson
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> Lord Layard, whose government report advocates training more clinical
> psychologists so as to support the provision of more psychological
> therapies, provides an analysis in his book Happiness (2005), of why in
> most
> Western countries, including the UK, depression rates seem to be rising
> and
> happiness rates not rising despite overall increases in material
> well-being.
> As an economist he has to express surprise - political economy
> expectations
> had been that increases in GDP would bring increases in citizen well-being
> overall, yet that simply hasn't happened, at least not in the arena of
> psychological well-being. He looks at the psychological literature and
> concludes that social comparisions are an underlying mechanism: He says
> "We
> have a good idea why happiness has risen less than was expected: our norms
> have risen, as other people's incomes have risen and likewise our own
> experience of comfort. The central mechanism at work here is our habit of
> comparision." Now, one possible route for an economist interested in
> psychology to follow on unearthing this insight would be to start thinking
> about how psychology could help in challenging the social forces at work
> that promote unhelpful expectations and aspirations and that fuel
> inequalitites, social divisions and war ( eg the role of advertising, the
> role of the media, the role of big business and shareholder economics in
> structuring western society towards ever increasing expecations of share
> holder rewards, the role of social denial in the face of huge evidence
> that
> unsustainable levels of consumption are fuelling environmental degradation
> and climate change). Indeed, there is plenty in his analysis to take us
> along the route in exploring these issues. However, his advisors from
> mainstream psychology are not too good at providing help with all of this.
> Psychology as it has been advanced in the west is largely ( though not
> entirely) the cognitive psychology of the individual, with a significant
> interest in clinical psychology in how to change people's thinking -- and
> given political avoidance of tackling the vested interests at work in
> advancing the social inequalities underpinning human distress, it is
> unsurprising that it is psychological therapy (changing individuals'
> "faulty" or "unhelpful" ways of thinking) that is currently attractive
> politically. If we concentrate on getting the population happy with things
> as they are, there is less political threat to those who stand to benefit
> from things being as they are.
>
> Yet at the same time, there is plenty of policy analysis in the Uk
> currently
> that acknowledges the need for more socially just services and provision -
> the NHS and public services are inceasingly asked to contribute to efforts
> challenging social inequalites at a service provision level - there are
> numerous examples of policy initiatives such as the Ten Essential Shared
> Capabailites of the Whole of the Mental Health Workforce which require us
> to
> work in ways advocated by community psychology - promoting partnership.
> prevention and empowerment ... there is lots of scope for challenging or
> providing a counter-balance to the current pre-occupation with individual
> therapy. However, since community psychology is so marginal to
> professional
> structures and therefore has no sort of political voice, we don't have
> much
> if any influence - currently the loudest voices in the applied clinical
> field are those of cognitive behaviour therapists. I fully agree with
> David
> that we need more community psychology at all levels of psychology
> learning.
>
> Of course it is the case that people who are psychologically distressed
> are
> asking for more talking therapies. We all know that human relationships
> underpin our well-being ( indeed Layard's own analysis summarises some of
> the evidence that this is so). But the evidence is that when psychological
> therapies are helpful they work through the provision of effective
> therapeutic relationships. But the social danger in focussing too much on
> the provision of "expert" relationships is that we thereby contribute to
> the
> diminishing of naturally occuring helpful relationships within
> communities - we perpetuate the idea that people cannot help one another
> but
> instead must rely on "expert" help. Yet as David points out, we know that
> non-experts can be just as helpful as trained professionals. (But trained
> professionals are not keen on exploring that further - we want to belive
> that our own therapies are special and complex thereby justifying our own
> existence). Yet there is evidence, for example in the field of
> psychological
> debriefing after disasters, that expert interventions, applied
> uncriitically, can make things better rather than worse, apparently by
> interfering with naturally occuring social healing processes.
>
> I worry as a trainer in clinical psychology that the debate is polarised -
> how can we contribute to advancing our social and psychological
> understanding of the deeper forces underpinning human distress, while at
> the
> same time adressing the deep human need for sympathetic humane response
> to
> psychological distress in human individuals. Where is the space for public
> health psychology? At the same time, how do we stop ourselves simply
> serving
> our own vested interests - especially given the need to justify the
> relatively large salaries that clinical psychologists earn? And how we we
> bring together a genuinely social applied psychology given the pressures
> and
> divides within our own discipline - and the various envies and
> disgruntlements between the different branches of psychology? And how do
> we
> genuinely work together with our non-professional psychology colleagues/
> comrades to contribute to social change? I am aware that many clinical
> psychologists ( including many that I have been involved in training) want
> to apply their critical knowledge of community psycholgy in practice yet
> experience difficulties in doing so because current NHS employment
> pressures
> along with uncritical management acceptance of the evidence base of what
> works in practice limits the scope of their activities. It is hard (
> though
> not impossible) to promote social change from within - it seems to me that
> we need to work together both within and without professional structures
> if
> we are to tip the balance away from simplistic solutions towards more
> complex analyses of what will improve our collective well-being.
>
> Annie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of David Fryer
> Sent: Sat 01/07/2006 10:54
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
> Apologies if my previous posting was misleading for some.
>
> I am indeed based at Stirling University myself but I certainly did not
> provide a link to the Stirling site to stimulate interest in careers via
> that route. I drew attention to that masters course in the Department of
> psychology at Stirling, as part of the debate re 10,000 extra
> psychologists,
> because it is an example of the newer courses I expect to see
> proliferating - they are far shorter than clinical courses and so the
> graduates are far cheaper to produce. Such shorter courses will inevitably
> cover less material in less depth than three year clinical doctorates
> because so much shorter and will provide a new workforce of psychologists
> for the NHS which is cheaper than employing clinical psychologists.
>
> Of course one can take different positions on such courses. From a
> critical
> perspective they share many of the problems of mainstream clinical
> psychology: both are primarily are about 'treating' individuals within a
> medical model frame of reference through intra-psychic change rather than
> preventing or addressing collective causes of distress within a social
> justice frame of reference through societal change. Both collude with
> victim
> blaming. Some might argue that three years of clinical training provides
> more scope for engaging with more approaches to intervention (some
> clinical
> courses include modules on community psychology) and more scope for
> critical
> reflection on the 'scientific practitioner' mantra. However, others might
> argue that because it is shorter the training for a one year masters has
> less chance for trainees to be socialised into problematic clinical ways
> and
> less opportunities for the effectiveness of trainees to be diminished than
> clinical training (thinking of Durlak's classic work suggesting that non
> professionals are often more effective than professionals in addressing
> psychological difficulties).
>
> What I would really like to see is more opportunities to learn about
> critical community* psychology in the UK as there are in many other
> countries. Regrettably I cannot currently recommend Stirling in that
> regard
> to members of this list. An established undergraduate module in critical
> community psychology has recently been discontinued by the University and
> whilst there is some really good postgraduate critical community
> psychology
> going on here now that particular work will be drawing to a close within a
> few months. Whilst future postgraduate supervision in critical community
> psychology is available in theory, in practice funding is very difficult
> indeed to get. Further community psychological praxis at Stirling
> involving
> more personnel depends, as elsewhere, upon the availability of external
> funding but such funding seldom allows genuinely critical praxis for
> obvious
> reasons - why would the powerful fund work fundamentally devoted to
> depowering it?
>
> David
>
> * interesting social psychology at Stirling is developing following the
> relatively recent appointment of Alex Gillespie
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue
> McPherson
> Sent: Fri 30/06/2006 13:52
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists
> needed....
>
>
> . . . . .
>
> Nevertheless, you will have many interested people (in careers, probably)
> looking at the Stirling site. It would be better, I am sure, if society is
> going to get stuck with more top-down cures that there is more variety.
> .
> . .. Are you at Stirling, by the way
>
> Sue McPherson
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Michael Swindlehurst <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:23 PM
> Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> No spelling mistake (on this occassion) with my use of the word 'canon'.
> This was a reference to the power of religion. The 'barons' refer to those
> who mostly control our social and economic structures as well put by Cathy
> and David below. The intended construction and advance of the 10k may help
> a
> little toward enlightening the big guns but I fear it is more likely to
> shield and prolong their reign at even greater loss to us all, including
> themselves. Our species and planet cannot cope with these 'valley of
> death'
> conflicts and inequalities indefinately. I just hope we can come up with a
> universal light giving brigade before it is too late for all of us. My
> hopes
> for this are currently largely with list members and your allies - most
> people on this planet I should imagine.
>
> Mike S
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
> Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
> Who would train the 10,000 psychologists? Yet more psychologists (to be
> employed and trained to train) of course.
>
> Would they come from the same school . . . . I would bet on training
> primarily to deliver cognitive behaviour therapy to people diagnosed as
> 'anxious' or 'depressed' . Much easier (and politically acceptable) to
> offer
> people psychological snake oil than to change our society to remove social
> causes of psychological distress and physical illness like unemployment,
> stressful employment, domestic violence, racism, heterosexism, disabling
> practices . . . . .
>
> If you want to get a glimpse of the likely future have a look at the MSc
> Psychological Therapy in Primary Care at Stirling University: "A variety
> of
> studies by central government and professional bodies have identified the
> growing demand for psychological interventions for adults presenting with
> common mental health disorders (e.g. anxiety and depression) in NHS
> Primary
> care. There is also widespread recognition of the difficulties in meeting
> that demand. This Masters program, delivered jointly by the Universities
> of
> Stirling and Dundee has been designed by National Health Service (NHS)
> professionals and experienced academics to train people to deliver
> psychological therapies for common mental health disorders in adults in
> Primary Care."
> <http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php>
> http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php
>
> To get back to Tennyson . . . I too struggled with the light brigade
> comparison, find the poem's images repugnant on a variety of levels and
> certainly do not see the 10K psychologists as the innocent victims. Cathy
> McCormack has spoken powerfully of the 'war without bullets' being waged
> against people lower down the social hierarchy by people higher up it . .
> .
> .a war being fought with brief cases, policies leading to widening
> inequalities, stigma, disabling practices and psy-techniques which lead
> people to internalise understandings of themselves and their settings
> which
> are damaging to them and serve the interests of the status quo. So if we
> are
> to think in terms of the charge of the light brigade at all, I suggest
> imagining those advancing into the valley of death as being those millions
> of our fellow citizens who epidemiologists have repeatedly shown have
> shorter, less healthy, more brutalised lives due to a variety of forms of
> societal inequality and imagine the the 10,000 psychologists as camped on
> the sides of the valley operating the CBT cannon to the left of them, the
> person centred cannon to the right of them, the stress management cannon
> in
> front of them and the positive psychology cannon behind them
>
> As for Marx . . .. I don't know about others but if my work was described
> as Marxist I would take it as a compliment . . .
>
> David
>
> David Fryer
> Community Psychology Group
> University of Stirling
> FK9 4LA
> Scotland
> +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
> Sent: 29 June 2006 1:53 pm
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> I don't know who you are or what you do. Sounds Marxist to me. I can't
> come up with a different metaphor at this moment but how about just not
> seeing the world in terms of them and "us" with psychologists the innocent
> victims in all this.
>
> Does not anyone know the theory behind this - that as people are rewarded
> they will align themselves with the oppressors? Psychologists can do harm
> as
> well as good, as any of us can. But they do have a lot of power.
>
> I would want to ask, who is going to train all these psychologists? Are
> they
> all going to come from the same school - the same way of thinking.
> Wouldn't
> it be better to have a variety of mental health professionals - if there
> has
> to be - to deal with different kinds of people - psychoanalysts,
> psychotherapists, psychiatrists, trained women's counsellors, and so on.
> It's frightening to think of so many psychologists wandering the social
> community seeking out new "victims" to indoctrinate into their way of
> thinking - particularly if they've all studied and come from the
> perspective
> of behaviourism.
>
> Sue McPherson
> Sociology (social-psychology and women's studies), envisioning wannabee
> psychologists rubbing their hands with glee.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Serdar M. Degirmencioglu <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 AM
> Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
> Well put...
>
> Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Swindlehurst <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:21:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
>
> Into the valley of death rode the ten thousand - canons to the left of
> them,
> barons to the right of them. Yet more measures to protect the big guns who
> are destroying all of us.
>
> Mike S
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
> Why 10,000 psychologists needed?
>
>
>
> In his paper, The Role of the Psychologist, Ignacio Martin-Baro cited
> French
> psychologist, Richelle, as asking Why psychologists?, why the quiet
> proliferation of a new species and Deleule as offering an insightful reply
> psychology offers an alternative solution to social conflicts: it tries to
> change the individual while preserving the social order, or, in the best
> of
> cases, generating the illusion that, perhaps as the individual changes, so
> will the social order. Martin Baro commented when looking dispassionately
> at
> the place some psychological concepts occupy in the dominant political and
> cultural discourse, or when pondering the role played by the majority of
> psychologists in our countries, one has to concede that Deleule makes a
> lot
> of sense (Aron and Corne, 1994:37).
>
>
>
> Aron, A. and Corne, S. (Editors) (1994). Writings for a Liberation
> Psychology: Ignacio Martin-Baro. Harvard University Press: Cambridge ,
> Mass.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> David Fryer
> Community Psychology Group
> University of Stirling
> FK9 4LA
> Scotland
> +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
> Sent: 23 June 2006 1:38 pm
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> Or, people could respond on this list, if they don't mind not making
> "rapid
> response." What do you think, Petra? You must have an opinion on this,
> surely.
>
> Sue McPherson
>
>
> ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list
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